ItchEtrigR wrote :

This is getting scarier by the minute! I feel another traggic event unfolding in front of our very eyes.

god bless us all....


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 27 januari 2003 21:59  
             
Frango wrote :

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47645-2003Apr7.html

 www.jsonline.com/news/gen/apr03/131713.asp

and people think america is just creating "false documents"!
 
Reply to this message  maandag, 07 april 2003 19:17  
                       
greyleonard wrote :

and people think america is just creating ``false documents``!

Oh man, where to begin...?

  1. The links you gave don't show that American officials haven't created false documents to try to get support for this invasion. 
  2. American officials have created and used false and forged documents relating to nuclear weapons, and have on more than one occasion admitted so.
  3. Iraq already acknowledged having sarin, tabun and other chemicals. 
  4. Those chemicals are not Weapons of Mass Destruction.
  5. Those chemicals are not justification for this invasion. 
  6. Given recent history, you should be much less hasty and much more skeptical when citing unconfirmed reports of smoking guns found in Iraq. :
 A facility near Baghdad that a US officer had said might finally be "smoking gun" evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons production turned out to contain pesticide, not sarin gas as feared.
The turnaround was an embarrassment for the US forces in the region, which had been quick to say that they thought they had finally found the proof they have been actively looking for.

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030407/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_wmd_030407175243
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 08 april 2003 00:03  
                                 
Frango wrote :

it is amazing that *this* for you is just a little story for kids, but when comes to your "america conspiracy" everything you show IS REAL!

I just showed you some links that is just the beginning of what US will find there and you say it is nothing.

LOL.

ps: Please make some music for us all.


 
Reply to this message  Today 02:20 (archive edit: Actually april 09, 2003)   
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

it is amazing that *this* for you is just a little story for kids, but when comes to your ``america conspiracy`` everything you show IS REAL!       I just showed you some links that is just the beginning of what US will find there and you say it is nothing.

(Are you trying to convince me that you are hopelessly dense?)

The Pentagon has already said that the NPR report is false. 

The links "you showed me" are 12th in a line of "finds" that have turned out to be false.  I'm betting you got those from Drudge, and are ignoring what Drudge posted later last night from the Washington Post.

You are also conveniently ignoring four other things I listed, as well as the other posts from below that you ran from.




 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  Today 06:08 (archive edit: Actually april 09, 2003)  
             
kurdt wrote :

www.ericblumrich.com/PD.html
 
Reply to this message  maandag, 07 april 2003 01:24  
             
hjhj huiuiu wrote :

i have been watching the war unfold and what has shocked and disgusted me more than anything is saddam selfish ways, he shows no regard for his poeple, he places his soldiers and weapons amongst them to make sure they get hurt when our forces attack them, then he shows it on tv to bring his people to his cause!!!

he has ordered soldiers to attack the un-armed support lorries and medical conveys

he has ordered troops to dress as civilians and carry white flags and do suicide attacks

he forces inoccent men to fight knowing they will die, and those inncocent men dont even get the choice of wether they fight or not, they have to!!!

he breaches human rights, the rules of engagment, the geneva convention!!!

he willingly tries to destroy humanitarian aid

hew tries to poison the sea with oil and pollute the skys with fumes

imagine living under this disctor where your forced to fight against your will, would you like that?

sadam is clearly a monster and needs to be killed!!! think of the people who are under his rule, living in fear

how can you say where the monsters for attacking them? our lives are so easy we take it for granted, none of us no real suffering

anyone who is still against the war has a real problem, either there just real yellow through and through, or they just like to go against the obvious to cause arguments, but they have serious problems!!!

we are right in what where doing, what if we never interveened with hitler? would you be sat here now?

we may have killed some innoccent people but its nothing compared to the millions saddam has killed!!!

this is not aimed ar anyone in particular so dont take it personally - its just my view.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 03 april 2003 14:54  
                       
greyleonard wrote :

You haven't been paying attention, Groves.

The Bush regime isn't invading Iraq out of concern for the treatment of Iraqi citizens.  That's just the most recent marketing line used by the Pentagon.  It's just about as simple as that. Remember when it was WMD's? Terrorism? (btw, Victoria Clarke used to work for the PR company that fabricated the baby incubator story in GW 1.  Did you know that?  [do you know who Victoria Clarke is?]) 

Have you even looked the Project for a New American Century site yet?
Bush isn't stopping with Iraq.  Syria and/or Iran are probably next. 

The USA used to support Saddam, helped him kill people, gave him the helicopters and chemicals used to gas people, and Rumsfeld himself approved of this.  The USA still has dictatorships as allies whose evil deeds can be compared to those of Saddam's Ba'ath party.  (FYI: The Ba'ath party took power in 1963 after another regime change at the hands of the US government.  The CIA orchestrated an assasination of then leader Qasim, because the USA didn't like his nationalization of IRAQI OIL.  Saddam returned from exile in Egypt to take place in the Ba'ath party, and the CIA furnished him with thousands of names of people to be murdered at the hands of the CIA backed "friends" in Iraq.)

For about 10 years, Iraq has had one of the weakest militaries in the world.  Saddam has never exported his evil tyranny beyond the borders of Iraq.  Hitler obviously did.  Stop bringing up Hitler until you learn about Prescott Bush, George's granddaddy.  Learn about him first, then if you want to discuss the relationship of the Bush family to Naziism, I'm all ears.

So again, The Bush regime isn't invading Iraq out of concern for the treatment of Iraqi citizens.  That's just the most recent marketing line used by the Pentagon.  It's just about as simple as that.

This attack has already caused more suffering than it was allegedly supposed to prevent.  Many of the actions you listed were predicted to happen by those opposed to the war.  Those predicted actions were used as reasoning to NOT attack Iraq in the first place.

As this invasion continues, time will reveal the disproportionately serious trouble it causes.  


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 03 april 2003 16:12  
                                 
Frango wrote :

greyleonard,

 

you are totally full of sh**t man. Where have you been reading those cartoons from?


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 03 april 2003 17:22  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

What exactly are you spewing about, Frangolicious?


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 03 april 2003 19:51  
                                                     
yob wrote :

I really feel for you greyleonard. You take the time to compose thoughtful, intelligent and well-researched arguments only to be dismissed out of hand by people who are apparently too stupid to understand the world in which they live or who are incapable of reading AROUND a subject rather than relying on single-source propaganda.peace
 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 04 april 2003 15:10  
                                                               
Frango wrote :

LOL.

you guys!  Sounds like some televangelists saying that amargedon is already happening or that Jesus is back but no body is paying attention.

May be is that america with its "conspiracy" theory is too evil that I can not even think about living here any longer!?  (well, I guess I will have to live here for a couple more years still).

 


 
Reply to this message  maandag, 07 april 2003 15:42  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

why is it that you don't you answer my question?

Is it because you can't support that what I said was even partially full of shit?


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 07 april 2003 15:53  
             
dkoy wrote :

Don't believe the media. Look at the facts. We went to war over supposed "weapons of mass destruction". So to solve this problem, America uses weapons to produce mass destruction in Iraq. I would also like to suggest a plan for our homeland security, buy a roll of duct tape and put it over Bush's big mouth. This would be the most effective step in the plan, stopping the problem at the source. Our current situation makes me very sad for all the people who are fighting and suffering. I pray that this will be over soon.
 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 08:11  
             
S M I wrote :

Huge chemical weapons factory just found in Iraq.

Comone all you damn lefties, rear your ugly heads.

Unconstitutional war my ass.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 01:23  
                       
Adam Geoghegan wrote :

when we share a planet with war mongers such as the US people need protection. Chemicals are cheap and effective.

 I say disarm the US. Why can they have nukes and no one else? America is the only one in the world with a history of using weapons of mass destruction and are constantly starting wars in other countrys and when a little war comes to them (sept11) they act as if they dont deserve it.

Next theyre going N.Korea. I can smell the nukes warming up.

Im ashamed that my government is supporting it


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 27 maart 2003 08:49  
                                 
Spe3d wrote :

mass destruction and are constantly starting wars in other countrys and when a little war comes to them (sept11) they act as if they dont deserve it

 

Adam,

 

WTF?

 

Deserve September 11 ??


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 27 maart 2003 09:40  
                                           
Adam Geoghegan wrote :

around 4 thousand died, so what. Americans have killed that number to the power of itself of innocent people and they say "oops! mistakes happen". Dont get me wrong, i dont agree with it, but the western world only sees what the western worlds government wants them to see.

Saddam is a psycho, Bush aint far behind


 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 02 april 2003 09:41  
                       
Craig Langston wrote :

 

          
S M I wrote :

Huge chemical weapons factory just found in Iraq.

Comone all you damn lefties, rear your ugly heads.

Unconstitutional war my ass.

umm. No weapons found

you might want to read this

washingtonpost.com

FBI Probes Fake Evidence of Iraqi Nuclear Plans

By Dana Priest and Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 13, 2003; Page A17

The FBI is looking into the forgery of a key piece of evidence linking Iraq to a nuclear weapons program, including the possibility that a foreign government is using a deception campaign to foster support for military action against Iraq.

"It's something we're just beginning to look at," a senior law enforcement official said yesterday. Officials are trying to determine whether the documents were forged to try to influence U.S. policy, or whether they may have been created as part of a disinformation campaign directed by a foreign intelligence service.

"We're looking at it from a preliminary stage as to what it's all about," he said.

The FBI has not yet opened a formal investigation because it is unclear whether the bureau has jurisdiction over the matter.

The phony documents -- a series of letters between Iraqi and Niger officials showing Iraq's interest in equipment that could be used to make nuclear weapons -- came to British and U.S. intelligence officials from a third country. The identity of the third country could not be learned yesterday.

The forgery came to light last week during a highly publicized and contentious United Nations meeting. Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), told the Security Council on March 7 that U.N. and independent experts had decided that the documents were "not authentic."

ElBaradei's disclosure, and his rejection of three other key claims that U.S. intelligence officials have cited to support allegations about Iraq's nuclear ambitions, struck a powerful blow to the Bush administration's argument on the matter.

To the contrary, ElBaradei told the council, "we have to date found no evidence or plausible indications of the revival of a nuclear program in Iraq."

The CIA, which had also obtained the documents, had questions about "whether they were accurate," said one intelligence official, and it decided not to include them in its file on Iraq's program to procure weapons of mass destruction.

The FBI has jurisdiction over counterintelligence operations by foreign governments against the United States. Because the documents were delivered to the United States, the bureau would most likely try to determine whether the foreign government knew the documents were forged or whether it, too, was deceived.

Iraq pursued an aggressive nuclear weapons program during the 1970s and 1980s. It launched a crash program to build a nuclear bomb in 1990 after it invaded Kuwait. Allied bombing during the Persian Gulf War in 1991 damaged Iraq's nuclear infrastructure. The country's known stocks of nuclear fuel and equipment were removed or destroyed during the U.N. inspections after the war.

But Iraq never surrendered the blueprints for its nuclear program, and it kept teams of scientists employed after U.N. inspectors were forced to leave in 1998

The Post story, written by Dana Priest and Karen DeYoung, continues:

Two weeks after the Sept. 24 British publication, the Niger story appeared in a classified version of the National Intelligence Estimate, a summary of U.S. intelligence agencies' conclusions about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, although the report noted that the information had not been verified and the CIA had not confirmed that the uranium sale had gone through. [Emphasis added.]

The Times doesn't have anywhere near the goods the Post has, but packs its column inches with plenty of complaints from CIA analysts about administration meddling. The Times' James Risen isn't any more successful than the Post at getting anybody from the CIA on the record. He writes:

Analysts at the agency said they had felt pressured to make their intelligence reports on Iraq conform to Bush administration policies.

For months, a few C.I.A. analysts have privately expressed concerns to colleagues and Congressional officials that they have faced pressure in writing intelligence reports to emphasize links between Saddam Hussein's government and Al Qaeda.

"A lot of analysts have been upset about the way the Iraq-Al Qaeda case has been handled," said one intelligence official familiar with the debate. …

"Several people have told me how distraught they have been about what has been going on," said one government official who said he had talked with several C.I.A. analysts. None of the analysts are willing to talk directly to news organizations, the official said.

Disputation over the forged documents isn't to end here, of course. With CIA analysts accusing the Bush administration of coercing them, the administration is likely to volley back in this internecine war fought on the battlefields of the nation's dailies. A glimmer of that coming clash appears in the last paragraph of the Post story, where a State Department spokesman flings the dead cat back over Foggy Bottom's fence toward Langley. The Post reports:

The State Department's December fact sheet, issued to point out glaring omissions in a declaration Iraq said accounted for all of its prohibited weapons, said the declaration "ignores efforts to procure uranium from Niger." Asked this week to comment on the fact sheet, a CIA spokesman referred questions on the matter to the State Department, where a spokesman said "everything we wrote in the fact sheet was cleared with the agency."

Still unanswered are these urgent questions: Who forged the documents? Given the documents' transparent inauthenticity, why were they given such credence? Who in the administration pushed the CIA to validate them (if it did)? Why didn't the CIA push back?

 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 14:29  
                                 
who cares wrote :

The washington Post...oh ...there's a reliable source.....is this a joke reply or are you just an idiot without a village????
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 02 april 2003 21:50  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

The [washington Post]...oh ...there`s a reliable source.....is this a joke reply or are you just an idiot without a village????

You are the idiot, and in a BIG way.  Your reaction indicates that you are, in fact, clueless regarding world politics and the actions of your own government.  I humbly request that you cease and desist voting in American elections until you get your ignorance sorted out.

I guess you haven't seen, with your own eyes, Powell, Rumsfeld, Victoria Clarke and others responding to questions about this issue.  They admit that the evidence is fake.  Or you haven't seen ElBaradei himself say they are forgeries.

"It was the information that we had. We provided it. If that information is inaccurate, fine," Powell said on NBC's "Meet the Press"    I saw Powell say this.

Fyi, Craig also quoted The Times. But why settle for just two sources?  Here ya go, sonny:  (including the IAEA site)

www.veteransforcommonsense.org/article.asp?id=542

www.abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20030315_444.html

www.aaif.org/iraq_waxman.htm

www.truthout.org/docs_03/031003B.shtml

162.42.211.226/article1918.htm

www.middleeastinfo.org/article2220.html

www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/

www.afrol.com/ms_index.htm

iaea.newstrove.com/

www.rense.com/general36/papers.htm

But really, disputing "one source" on this story is like disputing that a baseball inning has 6 outs, you sad bleating sheep ya.

v. bleat·ed, bleat·ing, bleats
v. intr.

  1. To utter the characteristic cry of a goat or sheep.
  2. To utter a sound similar to this cry, especially a whine.

v. tr.

To utter in a whining way.

 dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bleat



 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 03 april 2003 07:28  
                                                     
who cares wrote :

Why do you suppose I give a hoot about this greyleonard? Man, when will you get it? You are nothing. You aren't even oil in the cog. Do you really believe you're making a difference with your life here. I mean common!!!! Do you think I haven't looked up and seen all the evidence. My posts are meant to antagonise. So what if the evidence is fake...so what? so what? so what? so what? who cares? Who really gives a care about any of this. People die everyday. Wars don't kill anymore people than what are gonna die anyway. I mean, really, shouldn't it be considered there own fault? Survival of the fittest and all the other evolutionary garbage. America is the baddest bloke on the block. So we take out the weak and frail? Aren't we just fulfilling the great darwinian mandate of thinning the herd. And hey, if we get a good price at the gas line so be it. I'm all for it if we take out one of our 'operatives' gone bad...such as Saddam. Who knows maybe this will finally usher in the great Armeggedon. Off to the valley of Meggido we go....nation shall rise against nation.....wait! Maybe the little grey guys will come from far off, ya know the ones that 'seeded' our planet eons ago....with the seeds of life? I wonder where there life came from, but that's beside the point isn't it...let's not think about that because  we'll get confused by the facts....so here come the aliens to the rescue cuz man is about to wipe his own back-end with a nuclear holocaust. So they impose regulations on us to help us move on to our next evolutionary step which is some kind of spiritual ascension (right????...) We'll need a leader, someone who maybe is a half breed of this great alien race and us humans. Someone who can be a mediator for us between us and them, so we can understand how to become like them. Ahhh, but wait he'll make lots of peace for the world, and anyone who doesn't go along will be a party of discension and will need to be eliminated so that there flawed ideas and religions won't get in the way of evolutionary progress, because the next step in evolution will be through the mind and anyone whose mind  doesn't yield to the new order is not worthy to ascend. Is this far out or what! Whole nations will be wiped out for the few who are truly worthy to become like gods. Only those who look to the new mother and her offspring (the mediator) will be worthy because they will lead us to our new place in the great cosmic spiral.

WAR WAR, it makes the economy get better...yeah, I'm a complete antagonist. Ahhh you know me. I circle the field looking for people who think too much of themselves...you're an easy target cause you sit here and try to make fashoionable quotes and sayings to these kids. Haven't you got anything better to do professor than to sit and baffle the minds of the blind with all your dazzling lights and glitter? Your like the wizard of oz, I just love to pull away the curtain for a bit and show everyone your full of it. I wonder....do you ever think about me right before you slip off to bed and say to yourself, I wonder how who cares is doing?

Oh look....a plague on the horizon....isn't that nice
 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 04 april 2003 20:59  
                                                               
greyleonard wrote :

Damn, you need a hug or somethin?
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  vrijdag, 04 april 2003 21:49  
                                                                         
who cares wrote :

I love you too man...*sniff sniff* Cheers everyone. I got to go out for the weekend so I won't be able to be candid for awhile.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 04 april 2003 23:17  
                                 
malarial chill wrote :

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)

I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

 

 i'm sure this is more american funded propaganda seeing how any information shedding light on saddam's tyranny is vehemently unwelcomed by antiwar advocates.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 05:17  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam

Yup.  That's true for more than one reason.  Here's a few:

Governments lie.  All large functioning governments that I'm aware of today lie.

To immoral governments, human life is expendable.  (heck, to many individuals life is expendable)  Roughly half of the United States was willing to sacrifice an un-calculated number of lives to control one man.

He never should have expected Rumsfeld to say "PULL BACK! I DON'T WANT INNOCENT PEOPLE TO DIE!"  That is indeed naively foolish.

And Danny Pepper should have known that Saddam and his army would do whatever they could to save themselves.

But anyway, once again, maybe you haven't read this whole thread yet...
The argument isn't about if Saddam Hussein's regime is bad.  It is about the best method of dealing with the circumstance we all find ourselves in.

A self proclaimed "naive fool" is not going to convince a thoughtful mind that circumstances have required this war.

Peace

 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 09:22  
                                           
malarial chill wrote :

more "american" funded propaganda... btw, both articles were from www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3504-614607,00.htm seems that the british are helping to spread lies against iraq doesn't it? yeah, let's all continue to protest, maybe we can ask for each other's astrological signs, drop some C.I.A. patented acid and have lots of free lovin anti establishment sex.

March 18, 2003

See men shredded, then say you don't back war

“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.

The author is Labour MP for Cynon Valley.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 05:26  
                                                     
Frango wrote :

just to add to it.

How good is a "Security Council" if they approve (when being quiet) a regime as Saddam's regime?

In other words, this "Security Council" is beyond any rights to disaprove or even approve this war. They are to be judged too!

 


 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 22:14  
                                                     
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

If you bothered to read the article you cut and pasted, you would have noticed a reference to Amnesty International's documentation of the human rights abuses of the Ba'ath regime in Iraq. If you like, I can go to Amnesty's website and cut and paste a long list of equally egregious horrors commited by governments around the world, some our enemies and some our allies, and you can advise as to which one we start bombing first.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 06:16  
                                                               
who cares wrote :

All of them.....that's what I say. It's time the US got some payback for all the ungrateful pukes who take and take and take and take. You owe God and the US your life and your country....mwahhaaahhhhaaaaahhaaaa

What a bunch of....how many words could I possibly put after this statement to describe you kids.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 02 april 2003 21:53  
                                                               
malarial chill wrote :

cut and paste anything you'd like. while antiwar activists bitch about how innocent people will be killed in the name of oil, have any of them stopped to ask what do the oppressed iraqi's want? where were all these people when the iraqi's needed them years ago? sure copy and paste all the good amnesty international has done writing letters to saddam saying "dear mr hussein, please stop torturing and murdering your own people signed: the angry but reasonable pacifists at amnesty international" i keep hearing from those with an antiwar point of view about how ignorant and brainwashed those of us who support this action are and i keep asking the same questions and not one of you can give me an answer, what's your solution for all of this? aside from a cease fire what solutions do you have? obviously there are more than a few iraqi's who welcome this fight, many kuwaiti's who lost thousands of their citizens to saddam welcome this fight, are these antiwar activists speaking on behalf of the iraqi's or are they just using the iraqi's as an excuse to vent their own frustrations with the american government? spare me all your conspirative rants about how evil bush is and what he's doing is for the wrong reason, nowhere on earth do we have a perfect government running a utopian society, he is at least doing something that may very well be of some good to those iraqi's who are sick of saddam, regardless of ulterior motives, as if the fucking french, germans and russians don't have ulterior motives in wanting to ignore saddams tyranny, im sure their motives aren't also based on cheap oil.

until one of you can provide a reasonable solution to this war, a solution that will appease all you paranoid conspiracy theorists as well as all the anti americans from around the globe as well as all the muslim extremists as well as the oppressed iraqi's who've had to live in that beautific hell saddam built for them, the same hell these antiwar protestors moaning about the loss of innocent lives would have the iraqi's sentenced to for the duration of saddam's presidency which we all know will be for the duration of his own life, don't bother trying to point out how ignorant and brainwashed and ill informed i am. i've read enough material on this subject to form my own opinion and i've noticed when the news goes against the beliefs of those who want this war to stop they all scream it's propaganda, false reports, faux news, it's all a conspiracy, theyre shielding us from the truth. well um who is to say your source of information isn't corrupt? you can't have it both ways i mean if you don't trust the media then where the hell do you get your "reliable" information? on whose word do you base your opinions on if not your own paranoia? whether pro-war or antiwar i suspect their are motives on both sides to distort "the truth" (fuck, now i sound like faux mulder) i'd like to point out that saddam "alledgedly" censors the news that's broadcast to his people, i'm sure that's just another lie spun by the american media, right?

anyway <shrugs> a goodnight to all.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 08:23  
                                                                         
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

until one of you can provide a reasonable solution to this war...

Stop your fucking grandstanding.

No, wait, keep doing it, and I'll join you.

Answer my question: Do you think that the policy of the US/UK/Whoever should be to launch military strikes against every nation whose governments torture and terrorize its citizens, and if so, who do we bomb first and when?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 18:02  
                                                                         
malarial chill wrote :

Stop your fucking grandstanding.

 chainlinking yourself to a city street during rush hour isnt grandstanding? a mass pukefest on the streets of san francisco isnt grandstanding? a group of "enlightened" women stripping their clothes off and spelling the word peace isn't grandstanding? duct taping the word peace across your mouth while dragging a cross isn't grandstanding? using forums such as this one to insult those with opposite views of your own isn't grandstanding? it appears to me that there are more than a few people crowding the soap box on this thread but seeing how most of them share the more popular view they probably won't be accused of "Grandstanding". hypocrite.

No, wait, keep doing it, and I'll join you.

finally... SOLIDARITY!!!

Answer my question: Do you think that the policy of the US/UK/Whoever should be to launch military strikes against every nation whose governments torture and terrorize its citizens, and if so, who do we bomb first and when?

we've already bombed and you know when it began. i noticed you haven't offered a viable solution that appeases everyone, is that because there is no pleasing everyone? if we continue to bomb, if we call a cease fire and if we turn a blind eye to the problems facing the iraqi's someone somewhere will be unhappy. you're asking who i believe we should we launch military strikes against for maltreatment of it's citizens, that's not my call but as someone who doesn't stand back and watch as some freak tries to drag a woman on to subway tracks and as someone who wouldn't ignore someone crying for my help, i'd most likely support any action taken against any country who violates the basic rights of it citizens and yes, that includes america and as we all know, america has it's fair share of bullshit but now i'll ask you, the iraqi's have been suffering for years, why now do so many of you care about their lives? and what about the lives of those political prisoners in south america and china and korea and elsewhere throughout the globe? do you care enough for them to protest their abuse NOW? or do we have to wait for another threat from america to those countries before any number of you march, protest, scream, puke and strip nude on behalf of those whom you've chosen to neglect at this moment in time?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 27 maart 2003 05:11  
                                                                         
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

You know, I was all ready to launch a clever (in my mind), vitriolic response to your post, but now I find I just don't have the stomach for it. The first line of my previous post was not helpful and done out of anger, and I'm sorry for that.

I feel that the current actions in Iraq, because of the timing, the motives, and the manner in which they are being carried out, are going to make the world a more dangerous, more unstable, more hopelessly complicated place for everyone. Notice that I haven't said a word about oil or innocent blood. You, and many others, feel that the side effect (in the minds of those strategizing this whole thing definitely a side effect) of  the liberation of Iraqi people from brutality justifies any means, any motives, any consequences. I simply don't. My better solution? Almost anything which doesn't involve the most militarily powerful nation on earth arrogantly declaring a new "doctrine"  stating their right to make a unilateral decision to carry out any military action they deem necessary.The precedent being set scares the hell out of me.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 27 maart 2003 19:39  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

until one of you can provide a reasonable solution to this war.

Retreat.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 09:26  
                                                                         
malarial chill wrote :

retreat and then what? btw i agree with your general opinion on governments
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 10:03  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

retreat and then what?

For godsake man, let's just retreat.  Then maybe ...um I don't know...seek a peaceful resolution.

 

(which really means impeaching George Bush, because there was never a reason the world would support to get into this shit to begin with.)

See if Dick Cheney's Halliburton comes up more and more in the near future...

Hundreds of billions of fucking dollars going to Halliburton in government contracts to clean up Iraq after the war that Bush & Cheney et al - THE OILIGARCHY started.   Cheney gets 1 million dollars a year from Halliburton right now. 

Are you cool with that?  Do you know how much those dead soldiers get paid to fight for that Dick?  Dude, please... "Use the force!"

 That fucker gets money to mop up blood he spilled in the freaking Garden of Eden, fercirssakes.  Haven't you seen the video's of the POW's?  They were too poor to afford college, so went to "be all they could be".   Sold on a commercial made by the same dolts that make Old Navy ads.
  This is literally a matter of lives or deaths.  Those old white men just want to make sure they're hooked up for rest of THEIR lives.  Not the rest of ours.  Not the rest of our children's lives.

War is not the answer.

Peace.

 

   FUCK!!!

 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 10:23  
                                                                         
malarial chill wrote :

For godsake man, let's just retreat.  Then maybe ...um I don't know...seek a peaceful resolution.

 
have you noticed what kind of people we are dealing with? everyone is after bush's blood, how reasonable is saddam that we could approach him with a peacful solution? peace talks have done wonders for isreal, how long did the irish have to fight the british before a cease fire was called? this problem isn't one sided and i refuse to believe i'm one of few who actually see how unreasonable that region of the world can be, my god they flew planes into the world trade centers to call attention to their cause? is that rational? is that reasonable? and i don't care if saddam wasn't directly involved, he is of the same mentality as those directly responsible. how can you not see that? i'm all for peace when it's attainable but the days of ghandi and rev king are long gone, we are now dealing with global jihad, we are dealing with nukes in the hands of those who'd gladly kill themselves alongside the "infidels", how the hell are we going to reach a peacful solution with a group of people who don't even understand the concept of peace? and yeah that makes us hypocrites because in order to make sure they wont cause any more harm to the rest of the world we must first be as brutal, it's a double edged sword. if we do nothing there's a good chance that it will be too late to fight back and if we cont to fight, we're seen as arrogant monsters. if those assholes flew planes into german landmarks or the eiffel tower would germany or france shrug their shoulders and say "it's ok we understand you're angry at our western way of life"? and the twin towers is just on of many reasons why we need to take action now. yes bush is an illiterate arrogant prick and his seat should be given to someone better suited for the job, (hmmm who would that be?) i'm sorry if my opinion comes off as ignorantly arrogant but i have yet to hear anyone on this earth offer a more reasonable and less violent solution to this problem and until i do, i'll hope the casualties are minimal as we oust saddam from power.


 

Are you cool with that?  Do you know how much those dead soldiers get paid to fight for that Dick?  Dude, please... "Use the force!" 

cops understand the risk of their occupation, firemen also understand the risk of their occupation, cab drivers understand the risk of their occupation, we all now understand the risk of working on the 42nd floor of an office building and soldiers who VOLUNTEER to serve their country also understand the risk of their occupation and if we're going to use concern for the welfare of our military why not support them? boost their morale regardless if you find their presence immoral? 


 That fucker gets money to mop up blood he spilled in the freaking Garden of Eden, fercirssakes.  Haven't you seen the video's of the POW's?  They were too poor to afford college, so went to "be all they could be".   Sold on a commercial made by the same dolts that make Old Navy ads.
  This is literally a matter of lives or deaths.  Those old white men just want to make sure they're hooked up for rest of THEIR lives.  Not the rest of ours.  Not the rest of our children's lives.

that may be true but the current operating system in which our society is being run can NOT be changed overnight, if people are vigiliant of the government after this war is over we may begin to make those changes but i suspect this generation of hippies are no different from the hippies of the 60's and they will eventually lose interest in fighting social injustice in favor of buying homes, cars, getting married, supporting their children and generally living their lives. of course i could be wrong but the fact is we as americans CAN change our government if we want to, slowly but surely and we can get rid of bush by voting him out of office but we cant get rid of saddam or bin ladin or whoever else will eventually take their place by voting them out of power, we can't reason with them, fighting is a way of life for them and that's all they understand, sad but true but of course i don't know what im talking about regardless if i actually know people from the mid east, pakistan specifically who've shared many interesting and vicious stories of their families abroad... perhaps my pakistani pals are working for the u.s. government spreading more propaganda. i mean shucks golly gee im easily brainwashed yuck yuck yuck

War is not the answer.

neither is sticking fingers down our throats and puking on city streets cartoonishly emphasizing an opinion.

Peace.

 
peace.

   FUCK!!!

calm down, we're just exercising freedom of speech, it's not like anyone in the white house gives a fuck what either of us think.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 27 maart 2003 05:59  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Seems that the british are helping to spread lies against iraq doesn't it?

Yup.  They are on Bush's side ya know.   This story is many days old, and once again has no corraborating evidence.  There have been lies more inflammatory than that told to sell a war to the public.  Like the baby incubator lies from gw 1.  or check out the Goering quote from the post way below, or Craig's post from above...

If the title of the story was "See men electrocuted, then say you don't back war", would that have gotten the same reaction from you?  huh?  You've heard of Texas I s'pose? 300 people executed? Under George Bush?  MOST EVER in the US?  Including a mentally retarded person?

The argument isn't about if Saddam Hussein's regime is bad.  It is about the best method of dealing with the circumstance we all find ourselves in.

peace

 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 09:58  
                       
greyleonard wrote :

Comone all you damn lefties, rear your ugly heads.

You're a bit of a violent minded wanker, aren't you?

Huge chemical weapons factory just found in Iraq.

I'm expecting the coalition to "find" "wmd's".

But: That story is about 12 hours old, comes from ONE lousy source "the Jerusalem Post" fercrissake, (Richard Perle is an owner!) and hasn't been corroborated by our own military generals, and is only a chemical facility.  From the story: "It wasn't immediately clear exactly which chemicals were being produced here."  Remember when we bombed the aspirin factory?  Of course you don't. 

Unconstitutional war my ass.

If true, the story doesn't make the war constitutional.

We can't sit on top of mountains of WMD's of our own, and tell the rest of the world they can't have any like a brat in a sandbox.


mapusachemicalplants2.gif [25kb]()


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:07  
                                 
TC wrote :

There is a difference Grey.  The United States never surrendered and agreed to those terms of war.  In fact, the US denied the treaty that would ban chem/bio weapons. 

 

So what do you want?  Is the UN a joke or not?  Or is the UN only relevant when it serves your purpose?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 14:33  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

There is a difference Grey. The United States never surrendered and agreed to those terms of war.

Right.  I should have separated  "We can't sit on top of mountains of WMD's of our own, and tell the rest of the world they can't have any like a brat in a sandbox" from the rest of that post.  I was really trying to make a brand new statement, I just didn't want to do a new post about it.

It would've gone like this:  Can the USA sit on top of mountains of WMD's of our own, tell the rest of the world they can't have any like a brat in a sandbox, and expect everyone else to just say "ok, no problem". ?

I was hinting that it's essential that all countries and corporations dispose of weapons of mass murder.

I'm sure you've heard the Einstein quote "If there is ever a World War 4, it will be fought with sticks and stones".

In fact, the US denied the treaty that would ban chem/bio weapons.

YA THINK?! :)     hmmmmmmmm...

On the UN:  Wasn't that formed as protection against a World War 3 ?
Yeah, they are relevant imo.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 01:28  
                                 
S M I wrote :

Great job quoting each sentence with such precision!

ignorance abounds...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 04:59  
                                           
Nagual wrote :

ignorance abounds...

Speaking of which, here's some additional info on the "chemical weapons plant". Citing one source to prove a case is poor judgement, especially when it's Fox news.

Reports that US troops have found a suspected chemical factory in Iraq were "premature", the Pentagon said today.

www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/24/1048354521597.html

Major Chris Hughes, a US forces spokesman in Kuwait, would not confirm the reports. He said there were "sites of interest" that the military was eager to examine but declined to comment on whether anything suspicious had been found: "A conclusion as far as chemical weapons are concerned is premature."

www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,920714,00.html



 


 
Reply to this message  maandag, 24 maart 2003 06:27  
                                                     
Spe3d wrote :

I am just hoping that they do not release any information regarding finding W.M.D. until Baghdad is secure!

The moment the UN and its ‘doubtful’ members understand there are in fact these things there, the Iraqi regimes dismissal game would be lost.

 

This will mean no further loss for the regime to release such weapons on what they have been waiting for…. A mass collection of collation forces outside of Baghdad, an ideal target for their W.M.D.

 

France leaders have been warning of grave consequences, makes me wonder!! We already know of recent sales from Russian arms companies to the Iraqi regime!!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 07:02  
                                                               
Eugenio Escobar wrote :

[I am just hoping that they do not release any information regarding finding W.M.D. until Baghdad is secure!]

My uncle was sooo right when he said:

"Never underestimate the power of stupidity!"

Genao


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 06:13  
                                 
Spe3d wrote :

LOL!

 

Hey! Why do the police in America have guns?

 

What’s your opinion on that Grey?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:17  
                                           
mike m wrote :

Why do the police in America have guns?

because everyone else does?  ;)

www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/flash-02.php


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:37  
                                                     
S M I wrote :

Bowling for Columbine-"A company this successful does not need to sell handgun ammunition. But still, Wal-Mart, which does not release sales figures on its ammunition, continues to sell handgun bullets, bullets that kill people. People that die because Wal-Mart sells bullets. "

And people are dieing from heart attacks because McDonalds sells BigMacs? Ok maybe that isn't that greatest anaolgy, BUT there initial statement was pretty obtuse. It's like saying Cars kill people. No, the people driving cars irresponsibly kills people. Wal-Mart's not killing people with the bullets they sell, the morons using the guns are the killers.

Criminals are going to buy guns weather or not they are legal.

What a strange website. Hey grey, whats your stance on this one?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 05:12  
                                                               
greyleonard wrote :

What a strange website. Hey grey, whats your stance on this one?

If you watch the movie (It's on Winmx in 2 parts  part1 733mb, part2 732mb) you will see that Mr Moore went to the store that sold ammo to Kliebold and Harris that was used in the Columbine massacre.   With Mr Moore was a victim of that event.  He is paralyzed and in a wheelchair.  His one wish was to get bullets out of that store.  Mike helped him do it.

Charlie Heston on the other hand, had an NRA meeting in Columbine about a week after the massacre.
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 05:28  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Here's what Michael Moore said backstage after Bowling For Columbine won an Oscar tonight.  He was booed and cheered during his controversial acceptance speech. 

www.cosmicseed.net/assets/Sounds/Moore.mp3

 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 06:28  
                                                     
Spe3d wrote :

Cool link Mike, cheers! :O)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:45  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

because everyone else does? ;)

I was gonna upload the Making of Amerika.mpeg from Bowling, but it's 49mb.

 

 

Malarial Chill mentioned global harmony. 

I just wanted to say that.    Global Harmony
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:40  
                                                               
Spe3d wrote :

All comes back to beliefs again, Oh! And trust.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:47  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

[All comes back to beliefs again, Oh! And trust.]

you forgot music


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:50  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

you forgot music

Nope! Not this time, I am really trying not to get drawn into this and become a Grey Mk2 the defence of the defence for defence.

 

I try to keep things simplistic but can expand on my views, but know nothing will be achieved apart from saying this is my point of view, take it or leave it.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:57  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

[""you forgot music""]

[Nope! Not this time, I am really trying not to get drawn into this and become a Grey Mk2 the defence of the defence for defence.]

I was trying to 'shake hands and make up' with you, fuckface.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 03:22  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

I was trying to `shake hands and make up` with you, [fuckface].

Fair point Grey, I apologise for my most recent comment in this thread, un-called for, un-justified and not warranted.

 

I am sorry.

 

Peace!
 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 04:17  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

[Peace!]

Peace



funkybabymonkey.jpg [12kb]()


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 04:35  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

[Hey! Why do the police in America have guns?]

[What’s your opinion on that Grey?]

Same reason North Korea, India, Pakistan, etc have nuclear weapons. 




 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:33  
             
DawoudKringle wrote :

Peace, 

The most important thing is to understand the period of history we're in. It's a very volatile time in the world. I've been paying attention to what the media has been saying, and to what people for and against the war are saying; even attended an antiwar rally earlier today.
I don't think most people have a real grasp on what's happening. It's all nothing more than a business deal gone sour. The question of oil is pretty obvious. But the economy needed this war, and it came right on time. I saw in the NY Times that since the invasion began, the stock market has been stronger than it's been since 1983.
In fact, 90% of the wars in the world for the last 200 years have been business deals gone bad; or rather a necessary element of some business deal or another. It is inevitable to assume that ideologies are not in any way involved in warfare, except to divert public attention away from the true purpose of war.
It is also important to the infrastructure of the economic oligarchy to consume the products of human labor through war. This results in creating demand and stimulating dormancy's in economy.
Despite the fact that I am a Muslim, I do not believe in the existence of the West or the East. The USA, Iraq, Russia, England, Afghanistan, Israel, China, North Korea, etc., are not nations. They cannot be more than postal divisions because they are NOT based on scientific or holistic criteria to define nations. Exxon, Mobile, Sony, Mitubishi, AOL Time-Warner, Ford Motors, the World Bank, the IMF, etc. - these are the nations of the world. And part of how they sustain their nationhood is through disguising the true nature of their existence. Political leaders such as presidents, prime ministers, kings, etc. hold no real political power in the face of these entities. Either they divert public attention away from the seat of true political and economic power; or the true significance of their sphere of influence is not known.
Capital is not a tool of economics; it is a living entity that consumes, eliminates, competes for survival and dominance over territory, and procreates. Unless one understands this, and understands that a large percentage of it's sustenance is dependent upon the human propensity to stop at nothing in the acquisition of wealth and power, one has an erronious concept of capital.
Technology is not a passive element either. It is a useful and necessary part of human existence whose nature is that of a wild beast. It does not need human beings. It can be self-sufficient; and poses the danger of reducing the human being into a component of the technological project, rather than the master of it. This requires a constant vigilance and an endless refinement of human excellence (reconsider, if you will, the Neitszchian concept of the "Overman")  which is dangerous to the dominance of the capitalist oligarchy. This is so because hierarchal social structures can only exist by keeping the majority in a state of ignorance: one which must be a built-in self-sustaining self-refining mechanism passed down from generation to generation.
The most tragic thing about the sytem that enslaves us is that it's downfall, it's implosion, is inevitable. It is not even nessisary to administer an outside stimulus in this direction. It will happen. The self-destruct mechanism is inextrictably built into the whole infrastructure.


This is the nature of the world we live in.


Ma'a Salaam,
Dawoud


 
Reply to this message Author profile  zondag, 23 maart 2003 07:09  
                       
Andy Lindsay wrote :

This is the nature of the world we live in.

Disturbingly true.

AndyL.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 19:52  
                       
Yardan Immannuel wrote :

Wisdom is bliss. Nice overstanding Dawoud...
 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 16:40  
             
Mark wrote :

Someone in this thread asked if civil war might soon break out in America.  Since the rest of the world can only see mass media reports about protests, I will give you a picture of how it is in middle-America.

I work at a boring job in an office building--as do most people in America.  Nobody is really talking about the war, but I imagine many people are checking the internet more often for news reports.  Someone set up a television in the office lunchroom with CNN on it, but nobody is in the lunchroom watching it.

I read in the news that in San Francisco some people's drive to work was delayed because protesters were sitting in the road. But then they were moved out of the road.  I read that in my city, there were some protesters downtown, but since I don't work downtown, I didn't see any.

The amount and importance of protesters is exaggerated by the media, but nobody else cares if someone wants to go downtown and chant and wave a banner around.


We all go home at the end of the day and watch TV, eat dinner, go bowling, or go to the pub with the gang or whatever we do on any non-war day.

Does this sound like a country about to break out in civil war?



 
Reply to this message  zaterdag, 22 maart 2003 04:51  
                       
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

We all go home at the end of the day and watch TV, eat dinner, go bowling, or go to the pub with the gang or whatever we do on any non-war day.


This deSCRIPTion of anesthetized, self-involved, complacency is quite accurate for many Americans(and non-Americans, too), including myself in many ways.

It is also a chilling portrait of a vacuous existential hell from which many are desperately seeking to escape. The freedom to be a brain-dead zombie is not much freedom at all.

I'm not trying to be harsh to you, and yes, at the end of the day, we're all just a bunch of clever, silly monkeys trying our best to get on any way we can, but I,m thinking that maybe we can try to evolve into something more, just a little bit.

You're right though, I don't foresee civil war anytime soon, but then again history is nothing if not full of surprises.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  zaterdag, 22 maart 2003 20:38  
                                 
Mark wrote :

My point is that for those Europeans who don't have day to day exposure to Americans, we are not getting ready to kill each other.

I suggest that what you characterize as a vacuous anesthesized existence, I would characterize as a grim determination to do whatever is necessary to protect the country. We don't carry on normal lives without caring, we do so despite caring deeply.


 
Reply to this message  zondag, 23 maart 2003 21:53  
                                           
Eugenio Escobar wrote :

I would characterize as a grim determination to do whatever is necessary to protect the country.

You mean a grim determination to follow like a lamb the holy words of the prophet bush, representative on earth of our God "United States". A blind faith in something esoteric, untouchable and surreal. Facts, knowledge and ethics are irrelevant. What matters is that we are protected from Pearl Harbor! We need to spend more on defense so that we can preemptively defend ourselves in someone else's country, and in so doing, redefine the meaning of the word! We're almost there! Right now we spend more than the top 15 big defense spenders, and that is not enough!!! Next year we'll spend more than the rest of the world combined on defense, and we'll be nearing what we need!!! We can't get caught with our pants down again!!!

And how dare the Turks excercise democracy in their country!!!! When we said we wanted democracy in the middle east we meant democracy that IS SUPPORTIVE OF AMERICAN INTERESTS!!!!!!

AND HOW THE HELL DID OUR OIL GET UNDER THEIR SAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don`t carry on normal lives without caring, we do so despite caring deeply.
Yeah,  as deeply as a vacuous anesthesized existence will allow. You may bullshit people who don't live here, but you don't bullshit me. You don't give a shit what's going down. You're handing all the responsibility for what's happening into the hands of the current government, because your little brain can't handle the excercise that is  needed to comprehend and participate!!!! Your idea of democracy sucks!!! I HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT THINK ABOUT COMPLICATED THINGS!!!!

And BTW, the media is NOT reporting the correct numbers of people protesting the war. In fact, some are not reporting the marches at all!!!And you wouldn't know because by your own admission you haven't gone to one!!!!!

You self-righteous prick!!! How you piss me off!!!!!!

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 07:03  
                                                     
Spe3d wrote :

Wow! That’s deep, I guess the more words you write and more constructive sentences that are formed, the more respect and understanding you would obtain?
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 07:28  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

My point is that for those Europeans who don`t have day to day exposure to Americans, we are not getting ready to kill each other.

We already are.  At a rate over 10,000 per year.  (1998 over 15,000)

But that's beside the current point of civil war.  I said a "new brand" of "modern" civil war is showing early signs of forming.  I didn't mean one faught on the streets with guns.  I was alluding more to a war of information, propaganda, ideals, and social unrest more prevalent than during the Vietnam "police action".  (Even today, how many people know that the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was based on outright lies to the American public and American troops?)  What kind of person thinks the current oiligarchy is going to be honest when selling the war? (to reverse the recent switch to the euro in Iraq plus other imperialistic reasons)

   But to continue on the violent civil war point, a number of right-wing neocons, ARE advocating killing peace activists.  ARE talking shit like "If they come around here I'll show them what's what with my AK-47", running them over in the street...  After S-11, there WERE some murders of American citizens that looked "Arab" to fuckin idiots.  There IS at least one dickhead on this forum who "wishes" that a "chem bomb" would have killed another user of Fruityloops.  THAT guy needs to get his head out of his ass, and move to a country where free speech and dissent is feared and illegal and suppressed with threats of violence. Oh, shit! - sounds a little like the USA lately...

But again, I wasn't talking about a violent civil war at all.

rather than reply elswhere:

The war is 3 days old, let's recap:

we have killed soldiers who were surrendering
we may have shot down an RAF plane
we have found zero WMD
we have injured civilians in Baghdad
we have fired missiles into Iran
we have NOT found Saddam(possibly seriously wounded him)
we have not found Uday (he's in a wheelchair)shades of the one legged cleric in Afghanistan
we have killed some journallists
we have already had a fragging incident, documented by media
our 'leader' is playing hopscotch at CampDavid..
our government, on Friday cut war veterans benefits by 15 billion dollars.  (support the troops?)
our government has declared american POW's to be MIA instead.  (support the troops?)
our embassies are going over like dominoes
millions of people are protesting in the streets

Stock Market Soaring!
Amerikkkans Dance in Streets as Towelheads Smolder!
Presidential Approval Rating Gets Healthy Bump!
Fountains of Oil Right Around the Corner!

 




 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  zondag, 23 maart 2003 22:47  
                                 
Spe3d wrote :

You`re right though, I don`t foresee civil war anytime soon, but then again history is nothing if not full of surprises.

I see quite a lot of repetition in History ;O)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  zondag, 23 maart 2003 01:02  
             
Buckskin wrote :

what an amazing thread 8=0
 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 21:29  
                       
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

what an amazing thread 8=0

Well, it sure beats 200+ posts about some guy feeling gyped out of a free update. : )
 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 21:32  
             
S M I wrote :

"2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in"

The ones who didn't vote for Bush are the same assholes who voted for clintons SECOND term in office. DO some research and you'll find this was a catastrophe in the making when Clinton was still in office. Onle difference is Bush has the balls to do somthing about it.

The world should over throw sadam, as he is indeed an "evil doer". The guy is a nut case. Would you give a loaded gun to a 3 year old? No. SO why should Sadam stay in power? Unless you want to sit back and fear another terrorist attack (which was 95% most likely aided by Iraqi underground extremists fuled by Sadam) then we need to do somthing about this.

There is alot more to this war than many of you realize, and saddly you have really only learned information through the Media (HEAVILY comprised of Democrats).

This topic could fill chapters on why it has turned out this way, and before you become obtuse and listen to all those idiots out there screaming "Bush is a liar blah blah blah", sit back and take a moment to observe the whoe picture.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 04:43  
                       
Eugenio Escobar wrote :

 and saddly you have really only learned information through the Media (HEAVILY comprised of Democrats).

Yeah, that bastion of liberalism FOX NEWS, MSNBC, and CNN!!!

Like I said:

"Never underestimate the power of stupidity"

How can you see the whole picture with blinders on?

There is alot more to this war than many of you realize,

You're right. It's called Unocal.

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 07:12  
                       
greyleonard wrote :

Hi S M I,

   before you become obtuse and listen to all those idiots out there screaming ``Bush is a liar blah blah blah``, sit back and take a moment to observe the whole picture.

Bush is a liar.  Grave examples are widely documented.  You probably won't hear about them on the most popular news channels though.  One can't just sit back and accept what is fed to you from a few corporate media outlets.  It takes effort to gather enough pieces to begin to see the whole picture.

there is alot more to this war than many of you realize, and saddly you have really only learned information through the Media (HEAVILY comprised of Democrats).

(I assume you mean the major tv and print media when you say “the Media”.)
The media is HEAVILY comprised of republicans too.  But nearly TOTALLY owned by just a few conglomerations.  And anyway, the dissenters, the anti-war crowd, the hippie peacenik make love not war faction, and the ones who think it would be a good idea to impeach Bush, are nearly totally comprised of those that have an immense distrust of the major media.  They are the type that watches more than the 3 big American corporate cable news channels.  They also tune in to the BBC, CBC, C-span 1 thru3, PBS, public radio, the independent media centers all over the world on the net, communicate with citizens of the world online, and talk face to face with actual humans etc.
You are wrong when you say ““we” have really only learned information through the Media”.  What “we” have learned cannot be found on “the Media”.  “We” bloodywell intend to change that.

  I’d wager it’s the frightened people who fear an attack at any moment because they are hanging from the nipple of corporate run, government controlled “the Media” who should diversify there sources of information.

The ones who didn't vote for Bush are the same assholes who voted for clintons SECOND term in office. DO some research and you'll find this was a catastrophe in the making when Clinton was still in office. Onle difference is Bush has the balls to do somthing about it.

Catastrophe in the making?  Which catastrophe?  The blowjobs? You do some research, or at least peruse the research on this thread that has been supplied to you, and you’ll find that “it” started in the early 60’s.  The video of Rumsfeld and Hussein is from 1983.  Find out when Prescott Bush was alive and what he’s responsible for.
Learn about Iran Contra, Cointelpro, Operation Northwoods... On and on.

  Howzabout this catastrophe: Our country, the richest nation in the world is disliked by most of the planet. Our national anthem is now being booed in the country that was our closest friend 2 years ago.

Bush has balls?  He never showed up for the military service he signed up and pledged to.  One source: www.awolbush.com/ . Plus, he’s scared of answering questions in public when the answers aren’t SCRIPTed for him.  He hides behind his religion.  He hides behind some tough cowboy image.  That dude is from Connecticutt!

The world should over throw sadam, as he is indeed an "evil doer". The guy is a nut case. Would you give a loaded gun to a 3 year old? No. SO why should Sadam stay in power?

Once and for all: Anti-war demonstrators and peace activists do not think Saddam should stay in power!

Do the research.  Where did Saddam get his guns?  Who helped him stay in power?  The peaceful means to disarming the mayor of Baghdad was working.  The bushies don't give care.

 Unless you want to sit back and fear another terrorist attack

Can’t you see that it takes more courage to sacrifice one’s own life for peace than it takes to sacrifice other’s lives for war?
  I’m not sitting back fearing another attack.  Although I’m convinced that further humiliating the Arab world because we value American lives more than theirs, while pissing off the rest of the world doesn’t fucking cool things off any!

(which was 95% most likely aided by Iraqi underground extremists fuled by Sadam) then we need to do somthing about this.

Hmm.  Interesting that you used “95%”.  It’s interesting because the hate mongering, rude, reject from Access Hollywood, ultra right-wing, fascist, shameless mouthpiece for the Bush admin, jerk talking head from Faux news Bill O’reilly had a poll at his website the other day in which 95% of those polled (his fans) believed Saddam Hussein was involved in the September 11 attacks.  Because he told them to believe that!  You don’t happen to watch Faux news all the time, do ya?  You know he’s advocating the boycott of French products, right?  Why don’t you shoot an email to that fucker and ask if he’ll boycott Iraqi and Saudi Arabian Oil!  I did!   Oreilly@foxnews.com

Granted, 51% of the American public thinks Hussein was behind 911, but as Tedd Rall puts it, “that just shows that decades of financial cuts to American education are paying off”.
You couldn’t have possibly arrived at "95% most likely etc"… from doing research into the matter.

Please Start Here: www.takebackthemedia.com/ .

Then investigate Georgie’s family history beginning with Prescott Bush.  Turn off FauxNews, MSNBC, and CNN for a few days.  You will literally see the fear melt from your bones!

Maybe we’ll meet closer to the truth someday.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 10:11  
                                 
S M I wrote :

"Once and for all: Anti-war demonstrators and peace activists do not think Saddam should stay in power!".

There are many people who think otherwise. There are an uncountable ammount of reasons why people don't want to go to war with Iraq, and one of those happend to be that some protestors could care less if Saddam stays in power. They would rather sit on American soil and flaunt their annoying "Impeach Bush" banners when really they should be marching around with banners that say "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about!"

People need to understand what is going on, and while I realize my post wasn't very good at stating my viewpoint and what I think is going on, I think it's fair to say these few things.

Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. Any country with half a nut can get it's hands on virtually anything it wants. Obviously weapon inspectors aren't going to find anything in that giant sandpile hell hole. All Iraq has to do is find a nice piece of sand and bury their scuds nukes, whatever, in a train car 50 feet under the ground. Also, the other day did Iraq not fire Scud missles at US forces? Hmm, He said he didn't have any....

Iraq Hates America. They will do anything to make the US look bad. Saddam and his monkies wanted to look suspicious for the soul reason of making the United States look like the enemy. They purposely said "you can only send inspectors in if you give us warning first" to further the impression that they had something to hide (which they do), but in doing that, they give the US no other choice but to go in. Now, while war wages on in Iraq, Saddam has the majoirty of his troops surrender  (to further the impresion that they are helpless and have nothing to hide) when in fact they do.

Iraq forces the US to go to war, hides their weapons, makes themselves look helpless via an unmanageable ammount of surrenders, knowing they will gain Anti-War support from idiot lefties all over the world.

Its a hard point to prove, but I really don't plan on changing anyones minds (specialy you lenard), so I'll end it here.

No I'm not frustratred, but dealing with people that far left is really a waste of breath.

See ya.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 01:08  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

``Once and for all: Anti-war demonstrators and peace activists do not think Saddam should stay in power!``.


There are many people who think otherwise. 

I don't know if you mean anti-war people or pro-war people. ?


I know pro-war people call the dissenters unpatriotic and supporters of Saddam, but that's just crap.  The government will always try to discredit it's opposition, ESPECIALLY during a war, but there are republicans and top ranking veteran military officials from GW 1 who are against this war too, ya know...

 Show me evidence of an American anti-war protester with a sign that says "keep Saddam in power".

Our dispute isn't over how bad Saddam Hussein is or if he is a righteous leader of Iraq (Baghdad really). 

It's about the method of handling the situation.

It's also about knowing all of the authenic motives for this invasion.

Iraq Hates America.

The S-11 terrorists(trained by the CIA) hated America.  Can you please try to imagine why and find out more about it?  Do you think this war is going to reduce the amount of anger toward America?

Plus it's not true that all of the Iraqi citizens hate America

This is a blog from a young person in Iraq:  (I'm 95% confident that it's authentic)  It's very very interesting.

dear_raed.blogspot.com/


I don't want America to fight wars when the rationale behind them are "hard to prove".  

As things look right now, I'd gladly go back in time to last Thursday and keep trying for a more peaceful resolution.

 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 03:17  
                                 
navyblue77 wrote :

Hello greyleonard,

I have been reading some of your posts, and I was wondering if you could post a list of credible resources that you use to gather information, much of which I have not heard before, esp. about Bush and the war.  It has me very interested, because I have not explored your point of view before, and I don't tend to hear it where I am at.  If you have a few worthy sources that I could check out, web or otherwise, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 00:23  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

 It has me very interested, because I have not explored your point of view before, and I don`t tend to hear it where I am at. If you have a few worthy sourcesthat I could check out, web or otherwise, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

To begin with, I have a few reasons for being unsure of your honesty.   If you're being honest, I apologize; please don't take it personally.

  But anyway, my point of view begins with the 1st rule for authentic journalists: "The government will lie."  It is also tempered with a new rule:  "Corporate owned media will lie."  Guided by these rules, follow information to the source, investigate the source, and compare with other sources. (which is what you're doing I suppose)  Don't automatically believe something simply because it supports your current point of view.

Here's a zip of about 200 of my related favorites.  If you find some straggling links in there to stuff like the Raelians, "an airplane didn't hit the pentagon", and the face on Mars, ignore them.  Start with www.newamericancentury.org/   the official public site of the people behind this war.  Wolfowitz, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc...  Of course when some Americans look at that site they say "What's so wrong with the military of my government planning to take over the whole planet?"   (What past government does that sound like to you?)  If that describes you, cease your attempts at peeling back the veil of falsehood and go to your local recruiting office.  (I don't think most military personel are "bad and gullible people at all.  Not at all !")

 Library: start here "Ishmael" and "The Story of B" both by Daniel Quinn.   www.ishmael.org/

Finally, I really can't imagine why you'd ask this of me, unless it where to discredit "my sources".

Have fun.


webresources.zip [389kb]()


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 01:41  
                                                     
navyblue77 wrote :

Finally, I really can`t imagine why you`d ask this of me, unless it where to discredit ``my sources``.

Not at all!  To be perfectly honest, I have grown up in a rather conservative environment myself, and it was not until I went to college that I realized there are other points of view that might make sense if one takes the time to explore them.  I feel this war and its controversy is important for me to explore, both to understand others' points of view (instead of simply decrying them as leftist, extreme,...) and to formulate my own.  Discredit your sources?  Well, to no one but myself if that be the case, but to "encredit" them (if that is a word) just as well.  Believe me, I am extremely appreciative that you post your views so openly; it very much helps me to be openminded in my own search.  And thanks so much for the favor of posting your sources!  I will certainly explore them.

Cheers


 
Reply to this message  maandag, 24 maart 2003 22:50  
                                                               
Eugenio Escobar wrote :

You are a breath of fresh air.

What a wonderful thing an open mind is.....

Peace,


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 07:33  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

on Ishmael:

"The book opens with a deceptively ordinary personals ad: "Teacher seeks pupil. Must have an earnest desire to save the world."  Seeking a direction for his life, a young man answers the ad and is startled to find that the teacher is a lowland gorilla named Ishmael, a creature uniquely placed to vision anew the human story.

Ishmael's paradigm of history is startlingly different from the one wired into our cultural consciousness. For Ishmael, our agricultural revolution was not a technological event but a moral one, a rebellion against an ethical structure inherent in the community of life since its foundation four billion years ago. Having escaped the restraints of this ethical structure, humankind made itself a global tyrant, wielding deadly force over all other species while lacking the wisdom to make its tyranny a beneficial one or even a sustainable one.

That tyranny is now hurtling us toward a planetary disaster of pollution and overpopulation. If we want to avoid that catastrophe, we need to work our way back to some fundamental truths: that we weren't born a menace to the world and that no irresistible fate compels us to go on being a menace to the world."

 

on The Story of B:

"The story of B begins with Jared Osborne, a priest of the Laurentians (an order under an ancient, covert mandate to stand watch against the coming of the Antichrist), being sent to Central Europe to investigate an itinerant preacher known to his followers only as B. When Father Osborne finally tracks B down, he is startled by the power and originality of his teachings. Pressed by his superiors for a judgment, Osborne is driven to penetrate B's inner circle, where he soon finds himself an anguished collaborator in the dismantling of his own religious foundations.

Continuing the visionary journey begun in Ishmael, The Story Of B is a remarkable and provocative novel of intrigue involving the Antichrist and the hidden history of the world. "

 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 04:10  
                                 
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

 It’s interesting because the hate mongering, rude, reject from Access Hollywood, ultra right-wing, fascist, shameless mouthpiece for the Bush admin, jerk talking head from Faux news Bill O’reilly ...

So, how do you really feel about O'reilly?

I find his show to be the funniest thing on television. A few nights ago he seemed to be advocating miltary action against France. I heard a humorist on NPR commenting that if we really want to offend the French we should name more crappy food after them, you know, like calling ketchup "French tomato sauce". The best I've heard is from an unidentified French official who said with a completely straight face, "We are not concerned with what you call your potatoes."


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 22:07  
                                 
ESPER Division wrote :

That is the single most intelligent post I've read all week.

ESPER out...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 20:40  
                                           
Spe3d wrote :

Esper ;O) you need to add a varied diet to your weekly reading me thinks.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 21:51  
                                 
S M I wrote :

That is the most biased, narrowminded post I have ever read.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 15:18  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

That is the most biased, narrowminded post I have ever read.

Aww, yer cute when yer frustrated. :)  The earth is round.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 17:50  
                       
Spe3d wrote :

That is one of my views too, I am going to add to it… As I have read 'some' pepoles B.S. over n' over, gonna add my own ...

 

I reckon this kind thread (in fact looptalk) should 'not' be so used as a sounding board for insecure (extremists in the making) people to try and stir up almost treason like qualities amongst its fellow counterparts.

 

I use the above paragraph as an example of stirring up (feelings) by any method deemed fit for the purpose.

 

Instead maybe a lyrics thread, or a music thread on s.ex where emotions could be portrayed through sound, bit like a jazz session or something (what is the term for that)

 

Some people just do not know when the point is made and need to keep on pushing. Why? What are you trying to do? Educate? Enforce your beliefs on to others?

 

What if they disagree? Swat them with more rhetoric?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 05:16  
                                 
Tu Padre wrote :

Yo' sped,

What are "pepoles"? Are they them creatures that liev in "ceiteis"?

I reckon this kind thread (in fact looptalk) should 'not' be so used as a sounding board for insecure (extremists in the making) people to try and stir up almost treason like qualities amongst its fellow counterparts.

Jeeeeezzzz, man. Did you get out of high school???? And if so, how much did you pay?????

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 07:46  
                                           
Spe3d wrote :

Jeeeeezzzz, man. Did you get out of high school???? And if so, how much did you pay?????

Hi! Genao,

 

Your really hung up on the idiot thing aren’t you?

 

You should take a step back and ask yourself why!!
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 08:02  
                                 
S M I wrote :

amen Sped. Waste of breath I say, but what do you expect from slack jawed radicals?
 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 01:11  
                                           
Andy Lindsay wrote :

amen Sped. Waste of breath I say, but what do you expect from slack jawed radicals?

"Slack jawed radicals" !!

Oh, the irony!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 20:19  
                                           
Tu Padre wrote :

SMI,

i finally got what your initials stand for!!!!

S = Small

M = Minded

I = Idiot

That's it!!!!! SMALL MINDED IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 07:51  
                                 
mercury wrote :

[I reckon this kind thread (in fact looptalk) should `not` be so used as a sounding board for insecure (extremists in the making) people to try and stir up almost treason like qualities amongst its fellow counterparts.]

as far as i'm concerned, my participation in this thread is over. i apologize if i have offended anyone with my words and did not in any way intend to incite treason. at the least, i definitely do not hope anything i have said has stirred any emotional triggers because my understanding was that this thread was a way to discuss different beliefs and ideas about the war.


[Some people just do not know when the point is made and need to keep on pushing. Why? What are you trying to do? Educate? Enforce your beliefs on to others?]

clearly the point has not been made on either side, because if it had there would not be an argument any longer internationally or on this forum. see "the world is flat" for a situation where the point has been made and there is no longer a need for pushing.

any time anyone speaks about a public issue, the goal is usually to either educate or state their beliefs. otherwise, their goal is to simply argue for arguments sake. i think most people would prefer the former so that at least the attempts are sincere and something may be learned in the process for both sides. also, enforce entails force and not one person in this thread has used any force in making their arguments.

anyways, the thread was fun while it lasted until the 't' word got thrown in the mix and i think that pretty much ends the fun of it for many of us...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 06:07  
             
Fred Fredrickson wrote :

I made this little graphic for my website (www.fredrickville.com), I know it's not the best, but it has a point...

Oh and Btw, am I the only one who finds this disgusting (at least in the US) that they're making a visual spectacle of the war on TV... People are literally on the edge of their seats waiting for this huge attack that the reporters keep promising.. This isn't about info anymore, this is about entertainment..


dog.swf [63kb](468x60)


 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 19:43  
                       
Fred Fredrickson wrote :

Also, I'd like to invite anyone who wants to join the discussion at my website (www.fredrickville.com) about war... We've got an open forum.. and if you're anything like me, you'd love another place to gripe about war. (When you get there, the discussion is in the section labeled "Public Gripe Corner")
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 19:54  
             
greyleonard wrote :

"The current situation in the Middle East is not unprecedented. Hitler had his own "Axis of Evil" in Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland, supposedly guilty of hideous persecution of Germans in their countries. When Hitler invaded Poland in 1939 (having already annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia), he had been signaling his intention for years. Our President has been doing much the same thing for the past year, signaling his intention to invade Iraq on the grounds that Saddam Hussein has been engaged in covertly maunfacturing weapons of mass destruction. Hitler didn't have to prove that Germans were being molested in Poland; everyone understood that this was just a pretext. President Bush would LIKE to prove that Saddam Hussein has been manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, but many (if not most) political observers believe that this is just a pretext and that he intends to invade Iraq with or without proof. Hitler's invasion of Poland touched off World War II. I tremble to think what Bush's invasion of Iraq is going to touch off."  -Daniel Quinn www.ishmael.org/welcome.cfm

This morning there are large protests in Australia and Indonesia, China has called the war illegal, the European Parliament is debating it, the initial signs of a modern civil war in the USA are taking form.  I hope the opposition is heard by the combatants, and that the opposition leads to peace.  Quickly.

It's fuckin difficult to make music or paint with this shit goin down.
For me anyway.  I used to say "don't be as fearful as the powers that be would have you", but when it becomes apparent that the "powers that be" should be feared, it gives one pause.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 10:09  
                       
Phylum Sinter wrote :

...This morning there are large protests in Australia and Indonesia, China has called the war illegal, the European Parliament is debating it, the initial signs of a modern civil war in the USA are taking form. I hope the opposition is heard by the combatants, and that the oppositionleads to peace. Quickly...

Yes, even the pope has called it a sin.  Do you really believe a civil war could break out in the United States?  Meanwhile, the UN has been begging Iraq's neighbors to keep their borders open to refugees and Amnesty International is already calling the entire war a potential human rights catastrophe should the outlying countries not be compassionate.  Russia has said that it is completely unjustified as well.

It`s fuckin difficult to make music or paint with this shit goin down.

I agree... The only way to do it is to go in the basement and stay away from all newsfeed.  And that's not really possible to do with a clear conscience.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:07  
                                 
greyleonard wrote :

 Do you really believe a civil war could break out in the United States?

Well...Based on the hatred spewing from places like www.freerepublic.com and the passionate opposition from places like www.democraticunderground.com , a new brand of civil war has already begun.  It sure won't calm down any time soon.

Can anyone confirm that London has been "shut down" by protests?

I agree... The only way to do it is to go in the basement and stay away from all newsfeed. And that`s not really possible to do with a clear conscience.

Yeah. Yes.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 19:19  
                                           
kieron a gore wrote :

Can anyone confirm that London has been ``shut down`` by protests?

 If minor clusters of people counts then yes. Sadly though, not a chance. :(

 




 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 20:04  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

If minor clusters of people counts then yes. Sadly though, not a chance. :(

ok thanks, I had just been going by this... news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2866921.stm


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 20:26  
                                                               
Mac wrote :

 

Well, walking thru the City at 5.30 (17:30 for you military types) I nearly got my eye poked out by some Asian schoolkid with a no war banner over his shoulder, but apart from that it was business as usual. Sorry to spike your idealism Len. I guess we all had a big moan about a month ago when a million or so turned up, but no one took any notice (suprise). There's supposed to be another rally on Saturday, but I reckon it'll just be the Muslims this time.For the rest of us, it's time to sit back and watch the most expensive fireworks display in history


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 23:27  
                       
Spe3d wrote :

On an on he goes, goodness.... Grey!

 

You think way too much, it won’t do you any good you know.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 10:23  
             
kurdt wrote :

This is a fun topic, i cant get awayfrom it anywhere.  so here's most of what i have to offer, so i can get it over with.

Contents: 2 Letters to pre$ident bu$h, and a 'q & a' to see how well equipped your knowledge on the necessity of war on iraq, and links.

www.unitedforpeace.org/

www.votetoimpeach.org/

www.house.gov/writerep/
 

puplished on Monday, March 17, 2003 by Michael Moore

George W. Bush, 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Washington, DC



Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived
440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why?
'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q.
Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to
stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin,
etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself,
straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein.
After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours, Michael Moore
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Personal Voices: An Open Letter to the President

By Toby Barlow, AlterNet
March 7, 2003

Dear President Bush,


Remember back when you were first running for President and you had that
interview where you made that joke about the death row inmate who begged
you for her life. But then you killed her anyway? Well, some people
didn't find that funny, but I found it really funny! I think we sort of
have the same sense of humor. It's a little dark, but it's FUNNY, isn't
it? Here are some of my favorite jokes of yours:


What I think is really funny is 3,000 cruise missiles being launched
into Iraq within the first 48 hours of the war. The idea that you call
that "precision bombing," boy, that's funny.


And this is hilarious, the first Gulf War killed 205,500 Iraqis,
three-quarters of the dead were civilians, including 74,000 children.
More than 100,000 died of postwar adverse health effects. That's so
funny. I just look at that line that says "74,000 children" and I'm
laughing again, and I bet you're laughing too. Admit it, you're grinning
a little. Come on, 74,000 children killed. Do you feel that smile coming
on? Yeah.


And you know that's peanuts compared to the can of whoop-ass you're
about to unleash on those kids, what do you call it, "Shock and Awe" as
in "Awe there just went my baby girl, I'm covered in her blood, awe
there just went my legs." See, that's funny.


Now, it's also sort of funny that in the US-Afghan war, the US military
killed 3,400 civilians. That's almost equal to the 3,700 civilians
killed in the World Trade Center. I admit, it's more of a dry, ironic
kind of humor, but come on, killing innocent people to get back at
someone for killing innocent people, that's rich. "Killing innocent
people is bad, let's go kill innocent people." If someone said that on
"Married With Children" it would get a real big laugh.


Now, I know this cracks you up because it cracks me up - the UN
sanctions against Iraq, begun by your dad and continued by you, didn't
do a thing to Saddam, but they did manage to kill 5,000 children under
the age of 5 every month! Every month! 5,000 children dead! It upsets
you so much you're launching 3,000 cruise missles and blowing more kids
up now. Talk about not leaving a child behind, har, har, har. ("Awe,
there goes my mom!")


What's really funny is that Kofi Annan estimates that this new war could
swell the number of displaced people in Iraq to 2 million and create a
million refugees. A million! It doesn't get any funnier than that! What,
are they all gonna have little sticks and bandanas tied up with food in
'em? Oh, that's right, they won't have any food. And the joke's on them,
because they didn't even vote for Saddam.


What's really, really funny is that you even use the word "terrorist."
Aw, man, you're killing me.


Sincerely,

Toby Barlow


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Questions


Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq?



1. Q: What percentage of the world's population does the U.S. have?



A: 6%



2. Q: What percentage of the world's wealth does the U.S. have?



A: 50%



3. Q: Which country has the largest oil reserves?



A: Saudi Arabia



4. Q: Which country has the second largest oil reserves?



A: Iraq



5. Q: How much is spent on military budgets a year worldwide?



A: $900 billion



6. Q: How much of this is spent by the U.S.?



A: 50%



7. Q: What percent of US military spending would ensure the essentials of life to everyone in the world, according the UN?



A: 10% (that's about$40 billion, the amount of funding initially requested to fund our retaliatory attack on Afghanistan).



8. Q: How many people have died in wars since World War II?



A: 86 million



9. Q: How long has Iraq had chemical and biological weapons?



A: Since the early 1980's.



10. Q: Did Iraq develop these chemical & biological weapons on their own?



A: No, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations.



11. Q: Did the US government condemn the Iraqi use of gas warfare against Iran?



A: No



12. Q: How many people did Saddam Hussein kill using gas in the Kurdish town of Halabja in 1988?



A: 5,000



13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time?


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 04:33  
                       
malarial chill wrote :

 i don't support everything america does. america is a flawed country but at this time we are dealing with a region of the world that doesn't respond to diplomacy, they don't respond to peace talks, they don't understand the concept of negotiation, they respond to bloodshed and two wrongs may not make a right but before i watched the twin towers crumble from my apt window, i never once thought muslims were infidels and worthy of death in the eyes of jehovah (and no i don't believe in god, i'm a chaostrophist/ nihilist if anything... surprise surprise), they obviously felt that about westerners because as far as i know, i nor anyone i know has ever done anything to oppress or harm islam or the mid east, but hey it's ok for them to wage a jihad against us anyway right?. i appreciate arabic culture as much as i appreciate spanish culture, japanese culture, german culture etc but if any of those countries decided to blow up a building in america or in any way support individuals who would for any socio/political or religious reason at all, my opinion would be the same as it is now and that is we can not sit idly by and let people like saddam and osama bin ladin continue to terrorize the planet or their own citizens (dont give me that crap that they havent, saddam hussein is not a sweet old man and bush may not be the greatest leader of the free world but at least he doesn't have a rape room in the white house. islamic extremists have been hi jacking planes for as long as ive been alive, theyve been bombing buildings, blowing up cars and does anyone even know why? you dont think it's a serious danger to have groups of people killing themselves with the hope of taking out even more of their intended victims and not to have a logical reason as to why they do it other than "kill the infidels the enemies of allah"???). we are dealing with a mindset that somehow justifies stoning women to death simply because they were raped, how screwy is it for everyone to protest the war because innocent people will die when western society has known for decades how the people in that region of the world are treated by their own government, especially women. saddam has a rape room, a womans punishment for being raped is death by stoning but hey its none of our business right? all you sweet young thangs wearing your short pants and tank tops have no reason to feel a twinge of guilt for not stepping in to save these innocent people, not before bush decided to kill the man responsible for their pain anyway.

if the american government took bin ladin's threats more seriously than they did, my friend's sister wouldnt have died in the world trade center attacks and if all the protestors can't see why the lesser of two evil's must wage war (that's right the lesser of two evils, the american government doesnt behead it's citizens for speaking thier minds the fact that millions of americans can protest this war without fear of anything more than a night in lock up should tell you which of the two governments in this war is the greater evil) i'm not saying america is #1 and the rest of the world can bend over if they don't like it, america has more than it's share of problems that need to be addressed but i am saying we have a better chance of speaking out and making a change in western society IF WE CHOOSE TO (and most of us prefer to sit on our asses enjoying our freedom rather than devote time to protesting anything less popular than a war with an evil dictatorship) there is no reasoning with saddam or bin ladin or hammas etc etc their own people can't even speak out against them what makes any of you believe all we need to do is extend a hand, maybe some flowers and chocolates and everything will be smoothed out? bush may be a total moron and you can disagree with his actions but we as americans have the right to vote him out of office, saddam will stay in power until someone removes him and if anyone feels bush should be impeached for this action as AMERICANS we have the right to have that opinion heard, that's much more than i can say for the people of iraq who have to force a smile on their face in front of a camera out of fear of having their lips sliced off. it's ridiculous to believe that iraq doesn't have weapons of mass destruction and that they wouldnt sell these weapons to those individuals fanatical enough to use them to their maximum potential. another thing, yeah a part of this war may be about oil, oil that pollutes our air and our water supplies, oil that when burned in factories depletes our ozone layer, any of you going to stop driving your cars in protest of oil usage? any of you gonna stop buying electronic units built in factories that belch toxins into the atmosphere? you're insane if you think this war is only about oil.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 12:07  
                                 
Phylum Sinter wrote :

malarial chill wrote:

...i appreciate arabic culture as much as i appreciate spanish culture,japanese culture, german culture etc but if any of those countries decided to blow up a building in america or in any way supportindividuals who would for any socio/political or religious reason at all...

I'm sorry but I'm afraid you've been brainwashed a bit by the news -- and most people have, so don't feel too bad.  If you remember on September 11th, Saddam Houssein did say he gave condolences to the victims just like every other leader out there.  The only country that has more than idle threats against the United States is North Korea... and even they haven't given a big "bravo" to the September 11th attacks.  There is no solid evidence of iraq ever funding terrorism, especially lately.

We've killed more Iraqi's during Bush Sr.'s war over there than if some whackos managed to blow up 7 world trade centers... AND THEY WERE ALL CIVILIANS - WOMEN, CHILDREN, AND ALL. 

...my opinion would be the same as it is now and that is we can not sit idly by and let people like saddam and osama bin ladin continue to terrorize the planet or their own citizens (dont give me that crap that they havent, saddam hussein is not a sweet old man and bush may not be the greatest leader of the free world but at least he doesn`t have a rape room in the white house...

While it is true that we shouldn't let Saddam go against resolutions, all evidence to the rest of the world was pointing towards the direction that he was in fact disarming, and Bush grew impatient and starting sending more than 200,000 soldiers -- only 2 of them sons or daughters of senators, and none of them in the Bush family itself -- to risk their lives to take out what is essentially the Mayor of Baghdad.  Who cares if they have to blow out every building in the city, including bunkers that may just hold food and water, apartment buildings, electrical generators, hospitals and whatever... WE MUST KILL SADDAM, right? 

... islamic extremists have been hi jacking planes for as long as ive been alive, theyve been bombing buildings, blowing up cars and does anyone even know why? you dont think it`s a serious danger to have groups of people killing themselves with the hope of taking out even more of their intended victims and not to have a logical reason as to why they do it other than ``kill the infidels the enemies of allah``???)...

What of Timothy McVeigh?  what of the Japanese Red Army?  what of KADEK?  Terrorism is always a problem.  But there are ways to avert their eyes, be less of a target.  If the Italian government decided to instantly police the entire world, hoarding resources, set up offices in every country [even on what some consider sacred land] and involved itself in personal affairs between peoples it knew next to nothing about, you could guarantee that they would become the target.  America is often a target because it's government -- which is supposedly controlled by the people --  has done the above repeatedly and relentlessly, that is what is meant when it is said that we are "the enemies of allah". 

...we are dealing with a mindset that somehow justifies stoning women to death simply because they were raped, how screwy is it for everyone to protest the war because innocent people will die when western society has known for decades how the people in that region of the world are treated by their own government, especially women. saddam has a rape room, a womans punishment for being raped is death by stoning but hey its none of our business right? all you sweet young thangs wearing your short pants and tank tops have no reason to feel a twinge of guilt for not stepping in to save these innocent people, not before bush decided to kill the man responsible for their pain anyway...

So it's up to America to kill Islam, to kill every society that seems evil or harsh to us?  I am not justifying rape, but pointing these things out is not a reason to bomb a nation -- and if we continue to Bomb nations "rooting out evil rapists" or whatever, we will never see peace.  Your rationalization for this war is both extremist and illogical.  I only pray that  it ends without too many civilians killed and that the nearly inevitable post-war celebration dies down before next election.  Bush is not well in the head, even for a politician. 


Peace.

check here to see your tax dollars at work: www.iraqbodycount.net/
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 16:53  
                                           
malarial chill wrote :

So it's up to America to kill Islam, to kill every society that seems evil or harsh to us?  I am not justifying rape, but pointing these things out is not a reason to bomb a nation -- and if we continue to Bomb nations "rooting out evil rapists" or whatever, we will never see peace.  Your rationalization for this war is both extremist and illogical.  I only pray that  it ends without too many civilians killed and that the nearly inevitable post-war celebration dies down before next election.  Bush is not well in the head, even for a politician.

 yes, i have indeed been brainwashed, unlike all you modern day hippies who think "love" will conquer all. we should just leave all our militaristic decisions up to all you rationalists who believe we should sit back and wait for one of these extremists to detonate a nuclear device. let's ignore all the evidence that saddam IS a tyrant and that saddam DOES funnel money to terrorist networks all of whom don't give a rats ass about you anti war protestors, they kill their own muslim brothers alongside of "the infidels" to promote their cause but they aren't unreasonable people are they? no not at all, we should sit down and give osama 5 yrs to turn himself in for demolitioning the twin towers and we should give saddam another 12 years to disassemble his cache of weapons and suuuuuuuuuuure he's disarming, conveniently AFTER threats have been made, first saddam says "no i have no weapons" then all of a sudden he has weapons but that doesnt make him a dishonest guy now does it? that doesn't show how unco-operative he's been does it? naaaaaah, maybe he's just old and addleminded and forgot he had those missiles and forgot he has a biological weapons program and well if he forgot about those missiles who knows what else he's conveniently forgotten about, but suuuuuuuuure let's give saddam another 12 yrs to disarm, 12 yrs isnt enough time for this ruthless dictator to amass an even larger and more powerful arsenal, nope it takes 13 yrs for that doesnt it? 12 yrs isn't long enough for saddam to sell his weapons to islamic extremists right? you cowards sit around calling people like me brainwashed because i support getting rid of saddam and bin ladin and anyone else who would bring their countries problems to my doorstep but again i ask, if you're so concerned with the people of iraq where have you been all this time when saddam has tortured, raped and murdered his own people? where were you? were you joining amnesty international? were you writing letters appealing to saddam and his sons to end their tyranny? did even ONE of you find your way to baghdad to stand outside his palace and protest? or were you at clubs taking hits of acid hoping to get laid? you're all so principled when it comes to a popularity contest but if bush didn't say "enough with this bullshit" how many of you would be thinking about the plight of the poor poor people of iraq? sure let their own dictator murder them right? it's none of our business right? just like it was none of our business when hitler was gassing europeans, america shouldnt have gotten involved then either right? it was none of our business, it wasn't american soil so we shouldn't have given a damn. im sure that little problem with the serbs a few years ago would have worked itself out if the u.s. didn't step in, i'm sure the thousands of people being slaughtered felt that america shouldnt step in and police their countrys cruelty, we should just mind our own business and hope that the viciousness that saddam shows his own people won't someday come and bite us on our own ass.

 i have yet to hear any antiwar activists offer an alternative solution to this situation, but judging by the mentality of these antiwar protestors i'm sure their solution involves singing folk songs around a fire wearing tye dyes, smoking pot and having lots n lots of sex all in the name of free love... that'll solve all our problems won't it? i can see how well that plan would work when we finally catch up to osama bin ladin.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 22:43  
                                                     
Christopher Todd wrote :

i have yet to hear any antiwar activists offer an alternative solution to this situation, but judging by the mentality of these antiwar protestors i`m sure their solution involves singing folk songs around a fire wearing tye dyes, smoking pot and having lots n lots of sex all in the name of free love... that`ll solve all our problems won`t it? i can see how well that plan would work when we finally catch up to osama bin ladin.

side note: many Al-Qaeda members have been arrested.  Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, one of the key planners of the WTO bombing, was recently arrested, as seen here.  Other manhunts have gotten closer to their targets as cited in this article.  Osama Bin Laden has yet to be pinpointed as the mastermind of the 9/11 attack.

I am not anti-war, there are reasons for war - WW2 was a justified war, but dismantling an entire nation for one man (Saddam Houssein) is absolute lunacy.  The rest of the world recognises this, and yet we seem to think it's our job to end the evils of the world... America is not the World's Police, the U.N. is supposed to be in charge of taking out dangerous dictators, not the U.S.

There is ample evidence that the U.N. was doing all it could, and there was progress according to the weapons inspectors.  More constraints upon Iraq were to be piled on to the previous U.N. Statutes if weapons of mass destruction were found.  It can be chronicled from when the inspectors went into Iraq until we decided  "we don't care what the U.N. says anymore" that significant disarmament was taking place.  Even the "Al-Samoud" weapons that Iraq did have were being dismantled despite the evidence that they were not against any previous rules put out by the United Nations order.  Between 1991 and 1999 the Iraqi army was reduced to 1/3 it's previous size, and the amount of munitions and explosives kept were reduced to 1/2 it's normal cache.  These are U.N. Statistics, not Fox News doubletalk or releases from a Whitehouse that cites documents that don't exist.

What really drives this thing into the ground is all of the damage it is doing to international relations with other governments.  It only reinforces the image in the minds of many that America's army is not only tyrranical, but is arrogant and murderous as well. 

It's a matter of risk vs. reward:  is the ongoing negative, terrorist breeding image that we're currently showing to the bulk of the world worth amplifying to take out one man who has done no real harm (especially when compared to the United States itself!) since 1991?  Is it worth putting more than 300,000 of our sons and daughters in the face of danger when the only real payoff is cheaper oil via a yet-to-be-installed puppet government of Iraq?  Is it worth it, to you, to be hated by the bulk of the world because of your governments actions?

www.iraqbodycount.net/

Take care,

¿[phÿlûm]_siñt£r


 
Reply to this message Author profile  zondag, 23 maart 2003 14:34  
                                                               
malarial chill wrote :

i've read every post on this thread and i've read articles from posted links of those who feel i'm brainwashed and i will acknowledge the fact that there is alot of history concerning the u.s. government and the mid east that i knew very little about. i am not a supporter of bush and i have never been. my support on his current action has been for the most part reactionary. i like most people live day to day just trying to make ends meet, most of us who are lower middle class and below understand how frustrating it is to eat the crap that's spoonfed to us on a daily basis and when i watched the twin towers come down it was devestating, it was like they cut off the arms of new york and i sat here thinking with all the other bullshit i have to deal with everyday all of a sudden i have to worry about a group of jackasses from another country trying to blow us up, use biological toxins on us etc and i like many americans haven't done anything to these people, i held no grudge against them, i certainly have never entertained the idea of going to their country and killing them for any misconceptions of how they've negatively affected my life... that is not until bush declared war. 

my philosophy in life has always been "live and let live", but as a person who has lived his life facing a certain amount of unprovoked violence i do understand there is a time when trying to resolve a conflict with dipolmacy will have absolutely no effect and the only way to exit the situation relatively unscathed is to stand your ground and fight back. saddam hussein has been a perceived threat for awhile now. i haven't personally met the guy so i don't know how dangerous he is or not. i only know what i've read in the news and have heard from a handful of iraqi defectors and when talk of this war began a few months ago i thought "finally we're gonna do away with some of these assholes holding the world hostage" but after reading some of the websites posted on this forum about america's involvement in iraq i've come to view this action as the america government "putting down" a monster it created. as brainwashed as others on this thread perceive me to be i still want to emphasize that i do understand the difference between the saddam hussein and osama bin ladins of the world and the innocent muslims who just want to live their lives but can we expect the rest of the world to understand that not all americans are george "dubya" bush? or the C.I.A.?

as i said in my earlier post, i am not a blind patriot, i don't think america is "thee" greatest country in the world and so i'm not terribly surprised by what i've read these past few days regarding our history with the mid east but i still feel there is no easy answer to all of this and i'm not certain we would be any better off if we ignore saddam or for that matter the mid east. i'll be the first to admit, i have no fucking idea how to go about resolving global or domestic conflicts, i do know that every action has a reaction. now as to what action will cause a reaction towards global harmony? who knows? i don't and i'm convinced no one else does either.

in an ideal world we would all live without fear of being killed for any reason, we could live our lives however we please with the understanding that everyone else should be allowed to do the same, unfortunately we live in an imperfect world where fear, hate, greed and ignorance seem to be the norm. i'm sure other's on this thread will have something negative to say about my thought's and opinions and you're entitled but i'll end this rant by saying that while i can appreciate having a serious discussion on a serious topic i have noticed that some animosity is growing among our "family" here and i don't believe insulting other's because they disagree with your views is productive at all, it certainly won't convince anyone to even try to understand your opinion.

i'd like to thank grey leonard and phylum sinster for providing investigative links.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 01:56  
                                                                         
Phylum Sinter wrote :

Thank you, Malarial Chill, that was I think the most thought out response I've read here.  Now I see your point behind your convictions, and can relate.  We've all seen the changes that the bombing of the WTO had on America, as well as the world.  As a citizen, I don't want to see violence on anyone of any kind, especially when it's been given out as a "Mission of Liberty" or whatever.  Fact is, no matter who's giving the orders, it's wrong to murder your fellow man.  I believe strongly in the abilities of our minds to settle differences, to go to the obvious collection of leaders to discuss and deal with dictatorial behavior, and to take care of it without shedding a single tear or bit of blood on any side.  At the same time I know it's neigh impossible to really have this, it's far too utopian and we've developed far too many weapons to just get rid of them all, but I still have hope.

Thanks for your response, and may the resolution come as quick as possible, for everyone's sake.

¿[phÿlûm]_siñt£r


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 26 maart 2003 15:21  
                                 
Frango wrote :

thank you malarial chill .  Well said.

ps: where is greyleonard for this one?


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 15:26  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

ps: where is [greyleonard ]for this one[?]

I just woke up.   I'm reading what malarial chill said...

[edit: I refer you to Phylum Sinter.  And really, you shouldn't base your opinion on a message board anyway.  Do some research for yourself.  (but this thread does have a shitload of compelling stuff) /edit] 

[edit2: removed smile /edit]








 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:20  
                       
kurdt wrote :

13. Q: How many western countries condemned this action at the time?



A: 0



14. Q: How many gallons of agent Orange did America use in Vietnam?



A: 17million.



15. Q: Are there any proven links between Iraq and September 11th terrorist attack?



A: No



16. Q: What is the estimated number of civilian casualties in the Gulf War?



A: 35,000



17. Q: How many casualties did the Iraqi military inflict on the western forces during the Gulf War ?



A: 0



18. Q: How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were buried alive by U.S. tanks with ploughs mounted on the front?



A: 6,000



19. Q: How many tons of depleted uranium were left in Iraq and Kuwait after the Gulf War?



A: 40 tons



20. Q: What according to the UN was the increase in cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994?



A: 700%



21. Q: How much of Iraq's military capacity did America claim it had destroyed in 1991?



A: 80%



22. Q: Is there any proof that Iraq plans to use its weapons for anything other than deterrence and self defence?



A: No



23. Q: Does Iraq present more of a threat to world peace now than 10 years ago?



A: No


24. Q: How many civilian deaths has the Pentagon predicted in the event of an attack on Iraq in 2002/3?



A: 10,000



25. Q: What percentage of these will be children?



A: Over 50%



26. Q: How many years has the U.S. engaged in air strikes on Iraq?



A: 11 years



27. Q: Were the U.S and the UK at war with Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?



A: No



28. Q: How many pounds of explosives were dropped on Iraq between December 1998 and September 1999?



A: 20 million



29. Q: How many years ago was UN Resolution 661 introduced, imposing strict sanctions on Iraq's imports and exports?



A: 12 years



30. Q: What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per 1,000 births)?



A: 38



31. Q: What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in 1999 (per 1,000 births)?



A: 131 (that's an increase of 345%)



32. Q: How many Iraqis are estimated to have died by October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions?



A: 1.5 million



33. Q: How many Iraqi children are estimated to have died due to sanctions since 1997?



A: 750,000



34. Q: Did Saddam order the inspectors out of Iraq?



A: No



35. Q: How many inspections were there in November and December 1998?



A: 300



36. Q: How many of these inspections had problems?



A: 5



37. Q: Were the weapons inspectors allowed entry to the Baath Party HQ?



A: Yes



38. Q: Who said that by December 1998, "Iraq had in fact, been disarmed to

a level unprecedented in modern history."



A: Scott Ritter, UNSCOM chief.



39. Q: In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled?



A: 90%



40. Q: Is Iraq willing to allow the weapons inspectors back in ?



A: Yes



41. Q: How many UN resolutions did Israel violate by 1992?



A: Over 65



42. Q: How many UN resolutions on Israel did America veto between 1972 and 1990?



A: 30



44. Q: How many countries are known to have nuclear weapons?



A: 8



45. Q: How many nuclear warheads has Iraq got?



A: 0



46. Q: How many nuclear warheads has US got?



A: Over 10,000



47. Q: Which is the only country to use nuclear weapons?



A: The US



48. Q: How many nuclear warheads does Israel have?



A: Over 400



50. Q: Who said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter"?



A: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr


 

Got about 50-70 more pages of this shizzo, but i won't use it here.  The fun just goes on and on and on and on.


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 05:18  
                                 
S M I wrote :

51: Q- Are my facts 100% accurate and unbiased?

       a. No. They are infact unnacurate and biased.

Do you really think Saddam is going to sign a friggin document disclaiming half that shit? No. Half the facts you listed are just speculation.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 01:16  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

a. No. They are infact unnacurate and biased.

Which ones?

Half the facts you listed are just speculation.

#23 may be speculative.  It may also be true.  Which others?




 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 24 maart 2003 02:49  
             
double face wrote :

FUCK ISRAEL! FUCK SHARON! FUCK ALL THE DOUBLE FACED GREED BABY KILLING JEWS!
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 00:26  
             
Latherunner wrote :

Reading down through these boards it becomes hard to remember that this is JUST a message board and that people of all opinions and ideas post here, and That's Good ! I personally am a 22+ year Army veteran, a disabled veteran, wounded three times over 17 months overseas in Vietnam. One thing that I learned through all that was this. You can hate war, you can hate politicians, you can hate the guy next to you, although in combat, that's not a very damn good thing. lol.... But when it all comes down, and there is nothing you can actually "do" about it. You support those that are doing something. There are many political problems with the Saddam Hussien deal, and it should have been taken care of 13 years ago. But it's going to be taken care of now. Those soldiers overseas?? You SUPPORT Them !!!! The individual that said he was a gulf war vet, YOU Support Them !  And HOPE the best for their leaders no matter WHAT you may think, because it is decisions being made by them that may very well affect who comes home and who don't. And you may call it hope against hope, but it's ALL **WE** HAVE ! I'm sure many people on this board have heard things like this before, but I am another one that remembers quite a few good friends, brothers, that didn't make it, and some that seemed to vanish. SO, there is nothing for us to do now but this. Support Our People. If you're not from the U.S. then do as you will, but don't forget what we may have done for you in the past.

Have a good one !!! And please take care.

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 03:41  
                       
Eugenio Escobar wrote :

If you`re not from the U.S. then do as you will, but don`t forget what we may have done for you in the past.

If you're refering to France, and what we did for them during the world wars, please don't be ignorant and remember that if it wasn't for them, we might not have HAD a country we could call our own. Does Yorktown ring a bell? How self-righteously we forget.

And BTW, just because you're a veteran of a war doesn't make you the expert on political decision-making. That somehow because you're a vet you're some kind of untouchable sacred cow whose experience in combat magically gives you the knowledge by some misterious right of passage to be the world's expert on good and evil, on right and wrong, on truth and lies. Well. sorry to break your bubble, but knowledge still comes from study and dedication, not from being wounded. And BTW,  I'm sorry you were wounded, but it STILL doesn't mean that the Vietnam war was a just one (which, if you remember, was NEVER called a "war" by the government! It was first a "police action" and then a "conflict")!!!

...what we may have done for you in the past...

And of course, let us NOT forget Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador, Argentina, Uruguay, The Congo, and Mexico to name a few. Those countries remember what the US did for them.

I love my country, but I am COMPLETELY turned off and angered by the self-righteousness and arrogance of my government.

Eugenio


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 07:07  
                                 
Spe3d wrote :

This post below was made by Latherunner, in my opinion one of the most sane and thought out posts in this thread.

 

Now Eugenio I have copied it and spread it out so it’s easier to read for you, in it there are many good points to consider.

 

Consider them well but don’t draw on false assumptions, and then attack someone’s experience on both life and in spirit.



Post made by Latherunner

[Reading down through these boards it becomes hard to remember that this is JUST a message board and that people of all opinions and ideas post here, and That's Good !



 

I personally am a 22+ year Army veteran, a disabled veteran, wounded three times over 17 months overseas in Vietnam. One thing that I learned through all that was this. You can hate war, you can hate politicians, you can hate the guy next to you, although in combat, that's not a very damn good thing. lol.... But when it all comes down, and there is nothing you can actually "do" about it.

 

 

 

You support those that are doing something.

 

 

 

There are many political problems with the Saddam Hussien deal, and it should have been taken care of 13 years ago.

 

But it's going to be taken care of now. Those soldiers overseas?? You SUPPORT Them !!!!

 

 

The individual that said he was a gulf war vet, YOU Support Them !  And HOPE the best for their leaders no matter WHAT you may think, because it is decisions being made by them that may very well affect who comes home and who don't. And you may call it hope against hope, but it's ALL **WE** HAVE !

 

 

I'm sure many people on this board have heard things like this before, but I am another one that remembers quite a few good friends, brothers, that didn't make it, and some that seemed to vanish.

 

 

SO, there is nothing for us to do now but this. Support Our People. If you're not from the U.S. then do as you will, but don't forget what we may have done for you in the past.

 

Have a good one !!! And please take care.]

 

Again consider them well Eugenio, but don’t draw on false assumptions, and then attack someone’s experience on both life and in spirit.




 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 07:15  
                                           
mercury wrote :

"support your people"

there is no such thing...each person is individual and all they share is a similar DNA structure...the rest is rhetoric that has been thrown at the weak, ignorant, and innocent to keep them from rebelling when their life, property, and pursuit of happiness is stolen.

people spend their lives concentrating on these things that don't exist...think about how different you are from you friends/family and how similar you are in many ways to the other people on this board regardless of ethnicity or location. this is ultimately not about the us, france, or iraq, but about the individual leaders who are choosing to make these decisions. you can go to any country in the world and have people debate either side. why? because these sides don't exist. they are words and fabrications of reality.

so you say, ok hippie, how do you solve this problem? unfortunately, this problem, like all conflicts, is a result of the process of deindividualizing humans...turning them into groups that don't exist and telling them it is their team vs the other. islam vs christianity. white vs colored. rich vs poor. so to cure this problem...we have to speak up and encourage people to think for themselves and stop believing the propaganda. one person at a time...i think that by 2300AD or so if people are still around, we might be able to at least take care of the religion problem...as we are only slowly getting over the colored issue...

but for now, what to do? how about creating alternative energy resources and then we can stop paying the major terrorist nations in the world...saudi arabia and pakistan. once these are cut off, iraq and iran will be weak and shrivel on their own. why bother with countries that don't matter when we are supporting "terrorist nations"? this is anti-logic. ultimately this makes sense for our "team" right?

why don't we do this? because reality is about individuals, and bush, cheney, rumsfeld cannot make money for themselves and their friends this way. but by dealing oil and weapons they can continue to profit for themselves. why doesn't saddam leave? because he only cares about his power and pride, not the other citizens of his country.

so as i stated, it is ultimately about individuals. leaders are able to think and act this way. followers are not and follow like sheep. so stand up for yourself for once. you have nothing to gain by a war...except the possibility of another violent attack against you or your friends/family administered by the saudi family and friends with money that you pay to bush for gas that he pays to them for oil. do not support these terrorists any more and stop believing the hype. now that "our" soldiers are there, there is even more reason to protest and try to place pressure on "our" government so that we can get these young unfortunate humans out of this awful situation.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 23:47  
                       
dorell wrote :

In reply to: If you're not from the U.S. then do as you will, but don't forget what we may have done for you in the past.

I support those guys over there overseas, but i'm not supporting war unless were attacked. Also I'm I am from here and I am a modeled US CITIZEN!!!
now let's see what america has done for me in past and present:
Slavery!!! Tried and still is committing genocide!!!
Used my people as guinea pigs for biological weapons ie. syphillis from 1932 to 1972 and had the nerve to say it was a cure for "bad blood"!!! also let's not forget cancer!!! The US government sold crack to urban cities (ghetto's), (which is majority black and hispanics) to fund the the iran\contra war!!! Still haven't got our 40 acres and a mule they promised us ie. reparations!!! Native Americans,Japanese, and Jews are getting reparations, but US and WE will probably never will get it!!! Neverending discrimination!!! Dr.King pleaded for the day when a person would be "judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin." which still hasn't happened yet and probably NEVER WILL!!!
and not to mention the other atrocities America has committed. And all of this is documented.I can go on and on nuff said...
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 04:54  
                                 
Phylum Sinter wrote :

dorell said: "...Used my people as guinea pigs for biological weapons ie. syphillis from 1932 to 1972 and had the nerve to say it was a cure for ``bad blood``!!! also let`s not forget cancer!!!..."

You sound very angry about this.  I'd like to point your attention to something you may be aware of already: the CIA's MK-ULTRA project, which enslaved possibly hundreds of thousands of people of all races, including my own father.  They used drugs on him, tried to enslave EVEN HIS MIND... and yet we got no reparations either.  The entire lawsuit, which had 2,300 people from Michigan, was thrown out due to the inability to "find documentation" on it... when it is well known and documented that the CIA director in charge directly after the program ended in 1972.  Yet I have no "bad blood" for the situation.  My father still has nitemares and has to take tranquilizers because of it, and even he has forgiven those that did this to him.  I suggest you really ask yourself what you're expecting from these people and why you would really deserve it.

Take care, and relax.

¿[phÿlûm]_siñt£r
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:29  
                                 
Latherunner wrote :

 

Dorell said:

now let's see what america has done for me in past and present:
Slavery!!! Tried and still is committing genocide!!!
Used my people as guinea pigs for biological weapons ie. syphillis from 1932 to 1972 and had the nerve to say it was a cure for "bad blood"!!! also let's not forget cancer!!! The US government sold crack to urban cities (ghetto's), (which is majority black and hispanics) to fund the the iran\contra war!!! Still haven't got our 40 acres and a mule they promised us ie. reparations!!! Native Americans,Japanese, and Jews are getting reparations, but US and WE will probably never will get it!!! Neverending discrimination!!! Dr.King pleaded for the day when a person would be "judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin." which still hasn't happened yet and probably NEVER WILL!!!
and not to mention the other atrocities America has committed. And all of this is documented.I can go on and on nuff said...

Well my friend, I have news for you. There is evidence that quite a few individuals were used for experimentation over the years, quite a few white people as a matter of fact. And today people ARE judged by their character far more than say 35 years ago. You mentioned slavery ??? (And this is the last I will post about this...) I, nor any of my ancestors have owned slaves so I don't feel that I or anyone else owes anyone anything for something that MIGHT have happened to your ancestors. And by the way, Dr. Martin Luther King to me is a true American Hero. I wish I could have met him. But please bud, people have to start to realize that THEY are responsible for THEMSELVES, and not blame something that happened many years ago in another era for their present state. As for the Native Americans ??? As far as I am concerned they deserve far more than they have received for the absolute misery they were subjected to during our so called years of "Manifest Destiny".


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 05:36  
                                           
dorell wrote :


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 06:01  
                       
greyleonard wrote :

 Those soldiers overseas?? You SUPPORT Them

The best support a country can offer its troops, is insuring that their lives aren't sacrificed for an unjust, unconstitutional war.
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 04:33  
                                 
Spe3d wrote :

[Those soldiers overseas?? You SUPPORT Them ]






 

I agree with Latherunner 100%

 

And Grey in my opinion you are beginning to sound like a preacher from a Neolithic age.

notice no happy faces or lol's



 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 04:52  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

[And Grey in my opinion you are beginning to sound like a preacher from a Neolithic age.]

jeez, you again.  There was only one Neolithic age, and it didn't have any "preachers".  But once again I'm floored by the amount of rational thought that has gone into your opinion.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 05:01  
                                                     
Spe3d wrote :

jeez, you again. There was only one Neolithic age, and it didn`t have any ``preachers``. But once again I`m floored by the amount of rational thought that has gone into your opinion.

And in that very answer lays the problem with your arguments, and I am not going to be the one that will enlighten you to what that may be.

Thats all!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 05:09  
             
dorell wrote :

it looks like were going to war cause the U.S has an idiot for a president and as a desert storm vet, i can't support an idiot!!!



gwb.gif [49kb](468x60)


 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 03:12  
                       
Ken Schuller wrote :

As a veteran, you swore to obey the orders of your Commander in Chief.  If that oath no longer means anything to you, you shouldn't call yourself a veteran.

Sincerely,

(former) Senior Airman Schuller, USAF


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 03:37  
                                 
greyleonard wrote :

As a veteran, you swore to obey the orders of your Commander in Chief. If that oath no longer means anything to you, you shouldn`t call yourself a veteran.

You should be familiar with this, since you apparently took "the oath" :

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of The United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

This oath derives its strength from The Constitution, NOT from commanding officers.

You may have also heard of the Nuremberg defense...?  The one used by Nazis during the Nuremberg trials?  

Vie ver jus folloving orders!

 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 04:48  
                                           
Ken Schuller wrote :

Len, I'm not going to engage you in a conversation about this.  You've made your stance quite clear, and it's patently obvious to me you've never spent a day in uniform.  You can be as smug as you like, cite as many sources as you like.  At the end of the day, you've never served.  Until you have, don't think for a moment that you're even remotely qualified to tell me anything about military service.  On that note, my participation in this thread is terminated.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 04:58  
                                                     
greyl for 3 veterans wrote :

-As a veteran, you swore to obey the orders of your Commander in Chief. If that oath no longer means anything to you, you shouldn't call yourself a veteran.

 -
At the end of the day, you`ve never served. Until you have, don`t think for a moment that you`re even remotely qualified to tell me anything about military service. On that note, my participation in this thread is terminated.

I am a veteran, as is almost every male member of my family prior to 1985. We have fought in every war from The Spanish American War to Vietnam, with the exception of Korea...perhaps prior wars as well but no history is available.

George W. Bush was a vocal supporter of the police action in Vietnam. I won't belabor the point of how he got into the Texas Air National Guard ahead over 400 already on the waiting list. I won't belabor the point that he declined the opportunity given on his enlistment papers to serve overseas. I won't belabor the point that he disobeyed orders and failed to show up for drug testing and a mandatory physical and as a result was forbidden to fly. I won't belabor the point that his being forbidden to fly effectively wasted the 200,000 to 1,000,000 dollars worth of US taxpayers money spent to train him. I won't belabor the point that he went AWOL by UCMJ legal definition and got away with it. What I will belabor is the fact that George W. Bush stood in front of my countries flag, a flag which my family has protected for the past hundred years, and SWORE, with one hand on his heart:

I, George W. Bush
Do solemnly swear
That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States
Against all enemies, foreign and domestic
That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States
and the orders of the officers appointed over me
According to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice

SO HELP ME GOD

This was a pledge of commitment. It was a pledge made under the eyes of God to fellow countrymen. It is a pledge that George W. Bush failed to fulfill. A failure borne not of hardship or the fortitude of principle but of arrogance and privilege.

As a US veteran, I find the man, George W. Bush and anyone who attempts to defend or excuse his dishonor to our flag, our constitution, God and our country, contemptible and unpatriotic.

He has no business being our president and certainly no business being Commander and Chief of the United States Military. He has no business expecting young men and women to live up to a commitment that he himself decided was not worth living up to. My head hangs in shame that this man represents our country to the world.


R.C.

and:

My primary allegiance in the oath I took was to the Constitution. I also was sworn to obey the ORDERS of my commanding officers. Since I'm a veteran--and AF like the moron you quoted [Ken Schuller]---I'm no longer bound to obey the CinC or any other officer. That does not mean I'm not a veteran. My service makes me that. Nothing else.

This (probable) desk jockey with a year or so in (based on rank--unless he's a screw up) needs to learn how things work.

W.D.

and:

I also swore to defend the Constitution of the US against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC, and that, in my opinion Senior Airman, USAF means the BUSH cabal.

B.R. -(Mention that a Senior Chief Boatwain's Mate BMCS (E-7) with 25 years Active Duty USN and USCG combined said so. That is a little higher placed than a Senior Airman... well, I was going to make a crack on the USAF, but, no... they have enough problems without me commenting on them.)

 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 05:31  
                                                               
Ken Schuller wrote :

This (probable) desk jockey with a year or so in (based on rank--unless he`s a screw up) needs to learn how things work.

6 years, decorated.  Hammer Award for Organizational Excellence (Thanks again, Mr. Gore!) Meritorious Service, Humanitarian Service, Expert Marksman on both M-9 and M-16.  Supervised civilians and military troops, responsible for a couple million dollars worth of IT inventory, including a $250K IBM mainframe we funded for medical data warehousing when the USN couldn't come up with their own money.  Don't kid yourself.  I spent more than enough time intimately familiar with "how things work."

Why is it the Navy is the only branch with members so insecure they have to slag other branches of the service?  You should spend some time letting the Marines teach you some dignity and develop some pride and security in your life choices.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 06:51  
                                                                         
Kieron A Gore wrote :

(Thanks again, Mr. Gore!)

 

Don't mention it......What'd I do???

 HEHEHE....sorry. Couldn't resist ;)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 11:16  
                                                                         
Ken Schuller wrote :

Don`t mention it......What`d I do???

It was your uncle Al.  The Hammer Award (has nothing to do with wearing baggy pants and rapping over "Superfreak") is given to one U.S government (civilian or military) organization every year in recognition of excellence in financial management.  (In our case, I went around a base computer contract for procurement 175 computer workstations and related equipment and was able to save us about half a million dollars by using outside vendors, and got better machines in the process.)  The "Hammer" part is based on the now infamous $700 Pentagon hammer.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 14:38  
                                                                         
Kieron A Gore wrote :

It was your uncle Al.

 Damn. I've been rumbled.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 14:51  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

hehe.  You're really fond of that "pulling rank" shit aren't ya?  Whether its on someone who's younger than you, aol users, waiters, teachers, lowly civilians...

Why is it the Navy is the only branch with members so insecure they have to slag other branches of the service?

C'mon, you know that's not true.  You're doing it right now!

His slagging of you was only a small percentage of his argument.  Your response on the other hand is 50% slag and 50% irrelevant.  You are still avoiding the argument at hand.  And that's fine with me, because sadly, you haven't added anything worth considering. 

(I wonder if I'm targeting you, because I can't get Donald Rumsfeld on the phone...oh well.  You never should have carelessly insulted a veteran, when you've never been in combat.)
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 07:10  
                                                                         
Ken Schuller wrote :

hehe. You`re really fond of that ``pulling rank`` shit aren`t ya? Whether its on someone who`s younger than you,aol users,waiters,teachers,lowly civilians...

Nice strawman. 

Someone mistakenly assumed that I was a fresh recruit that had only been in "a year or so" and didn't know "how things worked", even though I made a point of mentioning that I had already served and gone in my original post.  So to further illustrate that I was neither a fresh recruit nor someone unfamiliar with "how things worked", I typed two sentences describing my service record.  There's considerably more than that on my resume' but it's not germane to this discussion.

His slagging of you was only asmall percentage of his argument. Yourresponse on the other hand is50% slag and 50%irrelevant. You are still avoiding the argument at hand. And that`s fine with me,because sadly, you haven`t added anything worth considering.[]

One could say the same describing the bulk of your "participation" here.

(I wonder if I`m targeting you, because I can`t get Donald Rumsfeld on the phone...oh well. You never should have carelessly insulted a veteran,when you`ve never been in combat.)


Another mistaken assumption, although technically, it was assisting in the supression of a riot during a humanitarian service mission.





 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 07:26  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

You haven't said anything about the oath or the constitution lately...

Nice strawman.

Strawman my ass.  I placed that statement outside of my argument.  You came close to using a strawman when you said I couldn't discuss the oath or the constitution because I've never served, though.  Definitely ad hominem.  Do you think you should stay out of philisophical discussions because you don't have a Phd in philosophy?  Obviously not.

Someone mistakenly assumed that I was a fresh recruit that had only been in ``a year or so`` and didn`t know ``how things worked``, even though I made a point of mentioning that I had already served and gone in my original post. So to further illustrate that I was neither a fresh recruit nor someone unfamiliar with ``how things worked``, I typed two sentences describing my service record. There`s considerably more than that on my resume` but it`s not germane to this discussion.

Once again, his opinion of your service record was a small part of his argument.  To you, it's everything.

"because sadly, you haven`t added anything worth considering."

One could say the same describing the bulk of your ``participation`` here.


To this thread?  Yeah, one could say anything one wants.  To this forum?  Yeah, one could say anything one wants.  Oh by the way, Nice Stawman.
I do wish you would have contributed more to the issue of the oath and the Constitution.

"(I wonder if I`m targeting you, because I can`t get Donald Rumsfeld on the phone...oh well. You never should have carelessly insulted a veteran,when you`ve never been in combat.)"
Another mistaken assumption, although technically, it was assisting in the supression of a riot during a humanitarian service mission.

Well you're right.  That is "technical".  You know that isn't what I meant by combat though.  And do you think your experience gives you the right to carelessly insult a veteran?

If you can find any "fallacies" in the heart of the arguments in this sub-topic of the oath, the UMCJ, and the constitution, please contribute. I'm not happy that it got sidetracked. 






 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 08:14  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

Len, I`m not going to engage you in a conversation about this.

I have a good idea why.  The point of view that you are grasping so tightly will suffer less injury if you retreat immediately.  Especially if you turn-tail without even acknowledging the argument I make.  I presented a cogent, valid, and supported by our United States Courts argument.  Your defenses just weren't prepared for it, I guess.

As Americans, we are both godblessed qualified to discuss the Constitution.  It's about the Constitution


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 05:11  
                                 
dorell wrote :

As a veteran, you swore to obey the orders of your Commander in Chief.  If that oath no longer means anything to you, you shouldn't call yourself a veteran.

i'm just anti-stupidity!!!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 03:40  
             
BigAL wrote :

Bush is going to bomb Iraq. Then he is going to bomb Iran and he is going to keep on bombing until he takes all of the middle east and guest what? The construction for the oil pipeline begins in Afghanistan in June 2003. They call it the "Central Asia Pipeline". The people in America are tickle to death. All that I hear everyday from this people is "bomb them, bomb them, bomb them". They love war.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 00:58  
                       
Phylum Sinter wrote :

...The people in America are tickle to death. All that I hear everyday from this peopleis ``[bomb them], [bomb them], [bomb them]``. They love war....

You must be hanging out in truck stops or somewhere of similar rank.  Anyone i talk to about this is unhappy and is not supportive of the President's decision, and many are wishing to become American refugee's under the thumb of a dictatorial president that doesn't care how many people protest.

Take care.

¿[phÿlûm]_siñt£r


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:35  
             
TC wrote :

I dont know what fantasy land most of you are living in, but Im glad you dont lead my country


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:44  
                       
mercury wrote :

many of us live in the 'fantasy world' known as new york city...

many of us within manhattan, blocks from the damage done on 9/11...blocks from the UN are living in that 'fantasy world'. while we, our friends, our families out here live daily in the threat of terrorism, we sit and watch how bob smith (or w bush or any other old tom and jerry) from idaho/texas believes we should 'nuke 'em to death...of course, bob smith won't be going and he also won't be living anywhere near a terror zone. for all the talk of terrorism, who has actually experienced it in america?

us new yorkers....most of which are in steady opposition to the war because we know that corporations like enron, arthur anderson, w bush, and haliburton oil/ex-ceo dick cheney make billions out of immoral practices...in fact we've helped them do so for decades and know that this war is not the way to stop terror. on the other hand, cutting off the saudi oil/9-11 terrorist funding that continues might not be a bad way to start.

but then again, what do we and most of the rest of the world know? obviously not enough. so in the meantime i'll crank up my fruity to drone out the non-stop helicopter patrols and thank bob smith from idaho for making new york an even noisier place.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 22:46  
                                 
mercury wrote :

as a quick aside...if you really want to help, support public transportation...you'll save $$$$$. imagine how liberating it is not to care that the price of gas is $4 a gallon or whatever it is now. no insurance, no DWIs, no DUIs, just bring your discman and a magazine and get anywhere from A to Z without worries. plus, you'll allow us new yorkers to breathe easier since it is difficult for the terrorists to attack us without money (90% saudi export money comes from oil and 15 out of 19 hijackers were saudi citizens as well as osama and most of al-Qaeda).
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 23:00  
                                           
Mac wrote :

 

Talking of Saudi Arabia (cradle of democracy and freedom) I like the way Pakistan is now best buddies with the US.

During the presidential debate, Bush was unable to name the dictator of Pakistan (and virtually all other world leaders) even though he'd just overthrown the democratically elected government in a military coup (Musharaff, that is, not Bush!).

Fast forward a couple of years and they're great chums.  Pakistan being the country whose intelligence service was used by the CIA to channel funds to the Taliban and Bin Laden to fight the Russians (they wouldn't accept your infidel money direct, bless 'em.)

Furthermore, when Pakistan developed nuclear weapons shortly afterwards, they got a slap on the wrist, and a couple of squadrons of cheap US fighters were put on hold for a few years.

So the two countries which have helped Bin Laden the most are regarded as staunch US allies.

Think again?

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 00:26  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

(90% saudi export money comes from oil and 15 out of 19 hijackers were saudi citizens as well as osama and most of al-Qaeda).

Yeah!  Meanwhile, bozos driving their SUV's want to boycott French Fries.  The idiocy is unbelievable.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 23:19  
             
( ( ((DrFx)) ) ) wrote :

America is a terrorist nation (hopefully not a nation of terrorists). It only cares about human rights within its own borders (as long as they don't conflict with corporate rights), labels any country who wants to have weapons of mass destruction "Evil" (when it has more than anyone else), fears not to invade any other country without the avail of the united nations and does not subject to the international penal court (making its citizens immune to international law).

Shame on America and shame on my country (Portugal) for taking a part in murder for money and oil...

(  ( ((DrFx)) )  )


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:23  
                       
Frango wrote :

I am glad at least someone is not letting another "Hitler" grow to the point that the whole world will be crying for help!
 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 20:32  
                                 
greyleonard wrote :

I am glad at least someone is not letting another ``[Hitler``] grow to the point that the whole world will be [crying] for help!

That sounds like something Archie Bunker would say.  The "growth" of Saddam's dictatorship has been thwarted for 12 years.  It is a mere shadow of what it used to be.  Did you approve of how Stalin was handled?  Did you know about the Nazi businesses in Bush's heritage? 

Look at the following official site then consider who the real "threat to the world" is: www.newamericancentury.org/


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 20:43  
                                           
Frango wrote :

i did not get your point. Can you explain it please?
 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 22:04  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

i did not get your point. Can you explain it please?

You are making a false comparisin between Hitler and Saddam Hussein.  Sadam is contained.  It is the Bush regime that is loose.  There are more parallels between the fundamentalist Bush gov and Hitler than between the Husseins and Hitler.

Read the info at the link.  It may compel you to consider that the USA intends to mirror certain actions of the Nazis, namely imposing its will across its borders.  The invasion of Iraq has been planned for many years.  At the site you will see that they knew that only a "modern day Pearl Harbor" and the fear it would generate, could be used to gather public support for the attack on the Middle East.

oh, and if you watch Fox(faux) News, cut that shit out!  It breeds stupid obedient sheep for the government to shepard.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 22:53  
                                                               
Zak wrote :

I usually don't respond to political comments that are posted on forums such as this, but I feel the need to sound off.I have silently held the belief that our government was turning into the 4th Reich. I am not making that comment to belittle the true terror of the Nazi regime. I am only making that comparision to raise concern over the increased abuse of freedom and liberties in the name of the Office of Homeland Security. Is Tom Ridge the Goebbel of our times?Any personal communication, email or financial document you have is prone to government inspection in the name of “defending freedom”. Am I the only one who thinks that's obscene?The US is about to fling crap into it's neighbors yard and wonders why others wish to harm our citizens. Such arrogance is frightening. I feel it will take a catostrophy for those in charge to realize the tragic error it is about to make.I appologize for the tactics of the president and his oil business associates.I truly feel there are other means.Pray to your Gods for peace.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 23:42  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Any personal communication, email or financial document you have is prone to government inspection in the name of “defending freedom”. Am I the only one who thinks that`s obscene?

No, you're not: www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6582&forum=DCForumID66

Hey kids!  Please take this quick quiz to test your knowledge of post S-11 "American freedom".

www.aclu.org/Quizzes/quizIntro.cfm?quizID=4
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 19 maart 2003 01:05  
                                                               
greyleonard wrote :

continued...

Also, the US government bolstered Saddam's dictatorship with money and weapons so he could fight against Iran.  The same year, the US gov secretly supplied Iran with weapons to kill Iraqis.

(The anthrax Saddam may still have came from a lab just outside of DC.)  

The guy shaking Saddam's hand is Donald Rumsfeld.  Rumsfeld is also a major player in PNAC.

edit: for Frango VIDEO: www.cosmicseed.net/a/Rumsfeld%20Saddam%20shaking%20hands.wmv



Saddam-Rumsfeld.gif [50kb](468x60)


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 23:11  
                                                                         
Frango wrote :

greyleonard,

I was for a moment taking you some serious but after that picture i have to say: what a "balone" you are bringing here.

Let's make music man!

 


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 15:19  
                                                                         
Gerry Clark wrote :

Frango,What Greyleonard says is well documented. Research before you ridicule.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 15:36  
                                                                         
Frango wrote :

I still don't see the point in this picture.

It could be anything that I want and you want it too!

Documented? where? by WHO? All I see here is a bunch of opnions very sentimental but very, very little evidence of a "Evil Empire".

Why don't you guys go make some music hun?

 


 
Reply to this message  zaterdag, 22 maart 2003 07:30  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

... well documented. Research before you ridicule.

To get frango et al started:

You can get the 2.5mb video here:

www.cosmicseed.net/a/action.htm

Bone up on Iraq/American recent history here:

politicalclothing.com/iraq_timeline_letter.pdf


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:46  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

Frango,What Greyleonard says is well documented. Research before you ridicule.

As is…

 

Area 51

 

That will, at some point, lead you to the colour green.

 

Green monkeys will take you to Marburg that will eventually lead you to Ebola....

 

Dental amalgam…. ;O)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 16:42  
                                                                         
Gerry Clark wrote :

I've read (too) many of your previous posts. You said to greyleonard "...You think way too much..." I've never heard anyone with any intelligence use that phrase. Please take time out from ridiculing people on this forum and read around the subject. We may all then benefit from your considered and knowledgable opinion.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:03  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

I`ve read (too) many of your previous posts. You said to greyleonard ``...You think way too much...`` I`ve never heard anyone with any intelligence use that phrase. Please take time out from ridiculing people on this forum and read around the subject. We may all then benefit from your considered and knowledgable opinion.

Really?

You have heard the phrase before?

So how do you classify who is intelligent and who is not?

This is an interesting phase you have used,

 

I quote  'We may all then benefit from your considered and knowledgable opinion'

 

What is interesting to me at this point is the use of 'WE' ;O)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:20  
                                                                         
Gerry Clark wrote :

[So how do you classify who is intelligent and who is not?]

It's difficult to judge from individual posts but after reading several comments from one person, especially when they concern a topic which demands a serious and considered response, I often feel that I can make an assumption regarding their ability to function on a higher intellectual level. Please note that I also make a distinction between ignorance and stupidity which is why I suggested that you read around the subject before you make any more comments. You may, of course, eventually prove my assumption to be wrong in your case but so far, so good.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:39  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

It`s difficult to judge from individual posts but after reading several comments from one person, especially when they concern a topic which demands a serious and considered response, I often feel that I can make an assumption regarding their ability to function on a higher intellectual level. Please note that I also make a distinction between ignorance and stupidity which is why I suggested that you read around the subject before you make any more comments. You may, of course, eventually prove my assumption to be wrong in your case but so far, so good.

Well I do not need to read many posts from you to understand so far you have indicated a low and narrow-minded basis for judging people on a whole. You use the word assumption and yet not understand the implications of using such a word.

 

Judgments based on assumptions particularly when not grounded on something empirical will lead you down a very long and dark path to knowledge of self, foe and friend.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 17:51  
                       
Spe3d wrote :

Shame on America and shame on my country(Portugal)for taking a part in murder for money and oil...

LOL! I think these are misguided words. I am in the UK by the way ;O)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:26  
                                 
greyleonard wrote :

[LOL! I think these are misguided words. I am in the UK by the way ;O)]

brilliant.  I think you converted me.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:44  
                                           
Spe3d wrote :

brilliant. I think you converted me.

I was not trying to convert you?? I was stating an opinion, lol
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:47  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

[I was not trying to convert you?? I was stating an opinion, lol]

good grief.  I know.  I was being sarcastic.  I was making a statement about the weight of your stated opinion.  col


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:50  
                                                               
Spe3d wrote :

good grief. I know. I was being sarcastic. I was making a statement about the weight of your stated opinion. col

LOL!

;O)

I am toooo sarcastic for my own good, me thinks ;o)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:55  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

lol ;O) lol ;O) lol ;O) etc. etc...

Turn That Loop Off.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:57  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

Turn That Loop Off.

I can not help it, I am now sure it has something to do with this software I have been using for years ‘FruityLoops’

 

Gone…. bonkers, bonkers, bbbbbonkers, (repeat) lol ;O)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 10:00  
                                                                         
kier wrote :

hehehe

Have you taken your medication this morning????


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 10:03  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

Have you taken your medication this morning????

Good point K, I knew something wwwwas up ;o)

Look at that this forum does www’s as links… wwww wwwhttp://wwww lol


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 10:06  
                                                                         
kier wrote :

 I don't know why everyones so anti bush!!!

Ooops. Wrong Forum......better go to where I belong. www.bigmuffs.com

:)

 

Sorry very cheap gag.  Just for the record I am anti the war.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 10:09  
                                 
( ( ((DrFx)) ) ) wrote :

[LOL! I think these are misguided words. I am in the UK by the way ;O)]

So do you support your PM's option of supporting this attack? I don't think Bush or anybody is justified to send all diplomacy efforts to the bin and wage a war to advertise weapons and get oil. And yes, I do feel shame because my PM supported this madness all along.

Oh well, I'll just sit back and watch him overthrow Saddam and fund an opposition party, oppressor or not, which just bows to his will...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:40  
                                           
Spe3d wrote :

So do you support your PM`s option of supporting this attack?

Yes! The sooner the better ;O)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:49  
                                                     
greyleonard wrote :

[Yes! The sooner the better ;O)]


So you've signed up to fight? 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:54  
                                                               
Spe3d wrote :

So you`ve signed up to fight?

What?? lol
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:57  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

the ride is over, sweet pea. 


baby_sped.jpg [11kb](468x60)


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 10:00  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

the ride is over, sweet pea.

 

Look at that learning to smoke at such a young age, or in training for international signs for deep sea diving ;O)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 10:11  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

I like what Robin Cook had to say.

hear it here: www.cosmicseed.net/a/action.htm


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 09:42  
             
Robert wrote :

heres a news flash....Bin Ladden, Saddam Hussein and some others are all....American meat puppets gone wrong....They were given power by the Americans and the whole shit hit the fan....On the other hand for those who wants peace in the middle east....Tell the Americans to stop acting like Israel's lil meat puppet....That would be a great start....Nothing worst then a (ex coke freak) cowboy president sticking his nose in a 2000 year old religious mindfuck he knows nothing about !!!!
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 13 februari 2003 02:05  
             
Z wrote :

If you are sick of the CNN & BBC monopoly of all the middle east news BOY are you in for a treat:

 Al Jazeera is going ENGLISH !!! This garauntees that all angles of the upcoming bloodbath are covered. This is good timing for the news network that has brought us the latest and greatest from the phantom terrorist king. With the US hell bent on some bone crushing this spring the Arab based news center will have the exposure it needs to become a bonifide news source straight from the nipple of the world.

so look on the bright side of war as a glowing light of more news networks!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:52  
                       
Spe3d wrote :

Everyone is going bonkers over the Iraq issue…but the real problem is going to be North Korea…. They really do have nukes you know…
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 21:01  
             
jonboy wrote :

This post's for Kieron.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:26  
                       
kieron a gore wrote :

 Doh!!........ I asked for that really didn't I!!

 

Bastard, bastard, bastard. :)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:40  
                                 
jonboy wrote :

You did somewhat.  :)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 21:00  
                                           
jonboy wrote :

I mean you really did!
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 21:18  
             
Kid Loop wrote :

I know what you mean....

It is sick to think we will be watching this unfolding on the tv in the comfort of our homes. something needs to be done i just think the root cause is somewhat deeper. Political leaders like Saddam don't just get there without a reason and I firmly believe the "food air deal" (as bill hicks would say) has a large amount to it. A lot of us come from prosperous nations so with decent (well sometimes) values, freedom (to a certain extent) and it is highly unlikely that many people in the western world (including me) can understand how people in these countries allow such people to lead them. With control over media and oppression and propaganda it is very hard for a nation to uprise against something they see as infallable. I do agree something needs to be done I just think that perhaps our own countries should take stock in the fact that many other countries are suffering in poverty and degredation whilst "developed" countries are happily continuing to export/get richer whilst the other countries decline into medieval times.

Just my 2 pence worth

:-)

Kid Loop

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 03:10  
                       
Brownfield Project wrote :

my 2c

War, will do nothing except kill innocent people either directly or indirectly.

We need to get the world together, walk into iraq, grab saddam hussein by the balls and drag him outside and publicly execute him.(most likely easier said than done) There is no reason why ANYONE should ever suffer because one man is a fucking lunatic. Its safe to say that very few people actually support saddam hussein. The world is obviously not in support of the war, but that does not mean(as bush would have you think) that they support saddam. In this day and age, there has to be a way to remove a dictator. But then again, we have failed at almost every assasination attempt ever made, except in our own country. As sad as that is.

  


 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 04:51  
                                 
Digital Deliverance wrote :

We need to get the world together, walk into iraq, grab saddam hussein by theballs and drag him outside and publicly execute him.(most likely easier said than done)There is no reason why ANYONE should ever suffer because one man is a fucking lunatic. Its safe to say that very few people actually support saddam hussein. The world is obviously not in support of the war, but that does not mean(as bush would have you think) that they support saddam. In this day and age, there has to be a way to remove a dictator. But then again, we have failed at almost every assasination attempt ever made, except in our own country. As sad as that is.

Very good (the bit in parenthesies, aside). The U.S. isn't, actually allowed to do assanations, anymore, though. If it was done covertly, guess who would be blamed. Otherwise, that's completly flawless, as most of his armey is disloyal, anyway. One insane life, instead of hundreds-thousands of sane ones. I've been saying that for years, but, the cause of the problem remains the same: stupid legeslation wherein the US shoots itself in the foot.

Now I'm out untill another board is chosen. I should take my own advice, allraedy.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 05:08  
             
Brian Jansen wrote :

i am satisfied with the way things are going right now regarding Iraq.  i am glad that france and germany are standing against us.  it is important that there is the political division.  both sides make strong arguments but a middle ground is better then either direction.  it's like the demacrats vs the republicans.  that's the beauty of the american system.  there is that ballance, and while it seems stupid and that nothing gets done, change is better when it happins slowly. 

i also think that we(U.S. and U.K.) should not and will not go at it alone.  it is very important to respect the UN and not to undermine it's will or authority.  that is overwhelmingly the thoughts of the american people no matter what their stance on war is. 

somebody once said(i can't remember where), "if you could have stoped hitler before ww2, would you have done it?", in refrence to military action in Iraq.  the easy answer of course is yes.  the problem is that question is just wishful thinking.  nobody can predict the future or change the past.  this is not to say that we should sit back and watch history pass us by.  it does say, though, that terrible things do happin and and there is nothing sometimes that you can do to stop them.  we must be careful with what mindset we enter into Iraq with. 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 20:52  
                       
Buckskin wrote :

i am glad that france and germany are standing against us. it is important that there is the political division.

I heard a great joke the other day...

How manyFrench people does it take to defend Paris?

It's been so long since they tried, nobody knows!

LMAO!!!!!!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 13 februari 2003 09:02  
                       
era wrote :

somebody once said(i can`t remember where), ``if you could have stoped hitler before ww2, would you have done it?``

ya wanna know somethin funny?  if hitler was killed one of the first 2 times we tried to assasinate him, he prolly woulda gone down in history as one of the greatest men ever?  just for the simple fact that he took the poorest country (cause of the retributions and whatnot after ww1, and germany was hit the hardest by the great depression) and brought it up and took on the world!  now from a COMPLETELY political view i see what he did was great (pre-ww2 and the internment camps and whatnot).  although i do beleive that war is silly, and childish.  and so is killing innocent people, all forms of prejudice is retarted so dont think i'm some anti-semite or some shit.  but you dont know what this world would be like without him... we might be better off with ww2 accually happening than if it never happened.

but no matter what i'm still against war.  it's retarted, and people who like war are retarted.

thank you and good night!

  -era


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 13 februari 2003 06:34  
             
kieronAgore wrote :


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 17:07  
                       
Peter Mahoney wrote :

Say it again?

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 17:33  
                                 
Mr Smug wrote :

Any other Aussies return their "terror kit" back to sender? 

sydney.indymedia.org/

Mine arrived today.  I have my stamped & addressed envelope at the ready.

George, Tony, no need to worry.  Lil Johnnie will be there for ya- y'know, that eager yapping sound around ankle height? Just say the word. 

 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 13:03  
                                           
greyleonard wrote :

Any other Aussies return their ``terror kit`` back to sender?

I hadn't heard of that.  Very cool. :) 

Indymedia is a good thing.


[by the way, tonight I'm going to see Ghandi's grandson speak at Salisbury University. (Maryland)  I had to tell somebody.  ]


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 13:43  
                                                     
Mr Smug wrote :

Indymedia is a good thing.

Indeed :-)  I found this idea intriguing as well:

www.riceforpeace.org/

Ghandi- he's that guy that managed regime change without bullets yeah?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:57  
             
airdrawn wrote :

www.warprecords.com/audio.php?id=2371

very, very clever, and very, very funny.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 03:33  
                       
Haller wrote :

very, very, very true
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 05:14  
                       
Andy Lindsay wrote :

very, very clever, and very, very funny.

And most of it true. 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 17:26  
                       
jzero wrote :

Great link. That's hilarious.
 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 06:25  
             
Brownfield Project wrote :

8===========>



rummy.jpg [36kb](468x60)


 
 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 03:30  
                       
Marc David Blackwood wrote :

Thats Fucking Hilarious.  He looks like he's really enjoying that one.  I wonder if the Construction Helmet was Donnie's idea.
O I guess its firemans hat. 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 23:52  
                       
greyleonard wrote :

nice link

 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 05:25  
             
era wrote :

god bless us all....

whom should god bless?  the stupid people who started this cock fight?  or us people who are caught in the middle of it and who dont want it to happen!?

unfortunately, when bush was elected, i was only 18, but unregistered, so i couldnt vote (or at least i thingk so, there was some reason why i couldnt vote).  but now that i'm 20 (almost) i really wanna see this bastard outta office! i've wated that for the past 3 (2?) years (time sucks, and so does bush!!)

but it's not his fault, in fact it's all these damn people who have a small penis complex about their religon, (btw, this includes bush unfortunately) and whavere else this whole damn thing is about!  i mean, i know more mature 5yr olds!  and the sick part about it is that all 7 major religons are AGAINST KILLING! not, 1 or 2, but all 7!!

even thou they say this isnt about religon (or they accually wont say it is or isnt) i'm damn sure it is, it's another version of the crusades!  and that was stupid then, and it's stupid now!

killing is wrong, well kinda, some people deserve to die, some people deserve life, but you cant beleive you should dish out justice like your god or some shit!

*steps off the soap box*

  -era


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 04:20  
                       
BillV wrote :

Actually, the Bible (Old and New Testaments) does not condemn killing, per se.  It does condemn murder (the 5 command of the Ten Commandments; Exodus 20:13).

In the New Testament, Romans 13:1-7 is very clear that civil authorities are given "the sword" by God to wield it against evil.  I believe that is referring to the lethal force used by a military organization, expecially since Paul was writing to a bunch of Romans living under Roman rule.

Bill


 
Reply to this message  vrijdag, 04 april 2003 18:59  
                       
Jason Thomas wrote :

killing is wrong, well kinda, some people deserve to die, some people deserve life, but you cant beleive you should dish out justice like your god or some shit!

Killing is wrong.  You are absolutely right about that and thats why Sadam needs go to go down.  Granted America does have alot shadiness to it but so does every country.  It's impossible for their to be a utopic society.  But atleast America don't condone raping woman, killing innocent, and beating children.  This is completely exceptable in the eyes of Sadam in his honor. 

Innocent people will die in this war but the war has to happen.  Now Sadam is a little schmuck with a small country but you never know what could happen in the next 20 years.  We can't let any surprises happen to surpress us or the development of our world.

Jay 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 05:41  
                                 
fruitee2001 wrote :

the development of whose world. I thought it belonged to us all , Iraq included.

You really are a funny guy.  "jingo jingo"

Condoning the raping of women   lol.       propaganda works on you  doesnt it.

 

Sorry  but you just made me laugh so i had to respond.

peace love and unity


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 02:34  
                                 
Andy Lindsay wrote :

But atleast America don't condone raping woman, killing innocent, and beating children.  This is completely exceptable in the eyes of Sadam in his honor. 
 
Actually, the US has funded and supported many ruthless and cruel dictators, including Saddam, in the past, and are still doing so.  The US government has become increasingly unscrupulous and self-serving, and will support any act of terrorism (yes, the US has funded many terrorist acts), and fund any coup that serves US interests.  If you look at all the horrible events that the US had direct hand in initiating (funds, troops, etc), the US is by far the most heinous terrorist nation.
 
It's precisely this behavior that caused the events on 9/11 to happen.
 

 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 16:53  
                                           
pras wrote :

It`s precisely this behavior that caused the events on 9/11 to happen.

no, it was the direct behavior of insane evil men that caused that to happen.  a blanket statement like that is ill-advised. it's no secret that the US has politically manipulated smaller nations with unscrupulous tactics to achieve it's means.  That's part and parcel to being a world leader.  But to hang your anti-war hat on that is a disservice to those that lost their lives on 9/11, along with the armed forces on the move now.  Double standard? You bet. there comes a time to draw a line though.  we can't have an unpredictable, duplicitous, deceitful megalomaniac pulling the strings of the UN without there being repercussions.  Or 9/11 will be 9/12,9/13, 9/14 etc..... 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 22:21  
                                                     
Andy Lindsay wrote :

The events that occured on 9/11 didn't come out of a vacuum.  It's grossly naive to say that they did those things simply because they are "evil." 

 it`s no secret that the US has politically manipulated smaller nations with unscrupulous tactics to achieve it`s means. That`s part and parcel to being a world leader.

You must be a republican.  :)   Manipulating smaller nations for purely self-serving reasons not part of being a world leader, it's called imperialism.  Feeling justified in manipulating world affairs, while disregarding the wishes of the people of those nations isn't part of being a world leader, that's world dictatorship.  The terrorist attacks are, in part, due to the resentment that much of the world feels toward US invasive policies.  I'm not justifying terrorism, or saying "we deserved it," but can't cure a disease by simply treating it's symptoms; you have to get to the cause of the disease.  The cause of the disease is not Bin Laden (and certainly not Hussein), they are symptoms of US imperialistic world policies.

 we can't have an unpredictable, duplicitous, deceitful megalomaniac pulling the strings of the UN without there being repercussions. 

Why stop there?  Why not just depose any world leader choose?  There are plenty of leaders of nations who do things we find repugnant, but we can't (and shouldn't) be the world's police.  Again, that's precisely the kind of thinking that causes the resentment much of the world feels for the US.


So there!  Nya, nya, nya!  :p



 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 02:46  
                                                               
Haller wrote :

it's sad to say it, but you're absolutly right... France, Germany, Russia, China and most of the third World Countries WILL NOT allow the USA to be the police of the world...

But I'll tell u this... don't worry... Mankind is meant to be free... We'll have to pay for it though... Every imperialistic country in history have found the Empire of Death and Suffering in their own stupid ideals of sick power... sorry for the people


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 05:42  
                                                                         
pras wrote :

The cause of the disease is not Bin Laden (and certainly not Hussein), they are symptoms of US imperialistic world policies.

Hey, Andy! surely as much as the world likes to think the American ego knows no bounds and would like to attribute credit for all in the world that is evil to US policies, I am sorry to inform you that if the US never existed, the likes of Saddam and Bin Laden still would.  If you consider them to be a symptom of US foreign policy, I guess you think Hitler was our fault too because we didn't buy the whole autobahn-VW-kill the jews bit.

FWIW, to label the US as imperialistic is a misnomer at best.  While we must police the world, we sure as hell don't want to rule it.

Let's take off the rose colored glasses a moment and see things for what they are, not what we idealize.  Are there ulterior motives for every party involved and not involved? Of course, but after 9/11 everything changed. Is that an easy bromide to give us license to pick and choose tyrants to depose? Perhaps, but unfortunately, while much of Europe and Asia would rather sit back and keep sucking on Hussein's oil on his terms, while he builds aresenals and abuses his own people, somebody does have to be the asshole cop going over the line to knock him back.  One of many he is, but his tenuous alliance or non-alliance with al qaeda really complicates the matter.  Nothing can be taken for granted. and remember, for those looking for the so-called smoking gun--a gun doesn't smoke til after it's fired.  should we just wait for that....? 

I would like to commend most posters by the way for elevating this thread above personal attacks on leaders or fellow floopers.  We are all entitled to opinions, which frankly seem to overlap quite a bit in sentiment even on opposing sides.

p


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 16:51  
                                                                         
Andy Lindsay wrote :

Jane, you ignorant slut,

I see what you are saying (most of the points I would have made were done for me in postings below), but in addition, I simply feel the administration are proposing going into Iraq for the wrong reasons.   Saddam needs to go, of course.  But it's clear to me and a lot of other peeps that the real reason for going into Iraq is because of the war on terror has basically petered-out, and the administration wants to show everyone that were Taking Action on... something.  It's less about oil than it is Operation Finish Desert Storm.

By the way, the US administration's behavior is, by definition, imperialism.   Is so!!  Seriously, in my political dictionary, the definition of imperialism fit's almost exactly... and the phrase "world leader" says nothing about covert operations in foreign nations, or funding coups and terrorist acts to for self serving goals.

"Pbpbpbpbp!"    You're dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 19:38  
                                                                         
Kid Loop wrote :

strange considering,

the US trained bin laden in the russia/afghanistan war and also helped put Saddam on his thrown of power as well,

as for Hitler it took you guys long enough to save our british bacon!!!






 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 18:11  
                                                                         
Haller wrote :

FWIW, to label the US as imperialistic is a misnomer at best.  While we must police the world, we sure as hell don't want to rule it.

Police represent the force of the law in any country, u stupid ignorant. I don't remember any agreement between the UN where they decided the US will become the police of the world. Fucking gringos, they just never know when to stop... But I'm glad... this will not last forever, but a few more tears (I meant years)...

 

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 18:07  
                                                                         
pras wrote :

 u stupid ignorant.

like i said, it's nice to see we haven't gotten personal about this--

Fucking gringos

or racist

I don`t remember any agreement between the UN where they decided the US will become the police of the world.

actually that's why we've been going thru the UN for this whole affair, still they want more inspections... the trouble is, nobody else has the nerve to do ugly things to advance personal freedoms.  I am not denying any of the horrible things the US has perpetrated against other nations, nor do I condone it.  I'm sure most Americans would love to undo Iran-contra, US supported al qaeda training, etc and make kissy face with the world. BUT IT JUST DON'T WORK THAT WAY.  As I said, there comes a point where new lines have to be drawn--and this is that point.

  See, I hear a lot of whining and hand-wringing from your sort, but not much in the way of solutions. If inaction is the solution, you, my friend are truly the ignorant one...

now, I knew I shouldn't chime in on this thread and I was right.  I've got more important things to tend to--like sound card shopping like the capitalistic imperialistic pig I am.... 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 19:23  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

See, I hear a lot of whining and hand-wringing from your sort, but not much in the way of solutions.

Solution to what problem, exactly? 

- The government lying about the threat that Iraq poses?  Colin Powell using a plagiarized, 12 year old term paper in his big prop show?  A president carelessly hellbent on war that didn't win the majority of the vote? (by 500,000 votes).  Ashcroft doing away with our civil liberties under the cover of national security?  An administration made up of oil tycoons (Cheney-Haliburton) who did business with the bin Laden family and real terrorist countries?  The economy?


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 21:41  
                                                                         
Andy Lindsay wrote :

-The government lying about the threat that Iraq poses? Colin Powell using a plagiarized, 12 year old term paper in his big prop show? A president carelessly hellbent on war that didn`t win the majority of the vote? (by 500,000 votes). Ashcroft doing away with our civil liberties under the cover of national security? An administration made up of oil tycoons (Cheney-Haliburton) who did business with the bin Laden family and real terrorist countries? The economy?

You anti-american, liberal freak!

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 13 februari 2003 07:57  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

You anti-american, liberal freak!

hehe    Takes one to know one!

Patriots For Peace Poster
Click here to download a copy of this poster




 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 13 februari 2003 09:36  
                                                                         
kieron a gore wrote :

 Hehehehe......Gringo? Pras? Never!!
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 19:35  
                                                                         
pras wrote :

K A G?!?

where the hell ya been, mate?!?  I needs help bad on this soundcard thing!! (or reply to the numerous posts I've up on the matter--see last word on sound card or Multi-client...) or write me maybe? some          day? :(

(really-me, gringo? puleeze!)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:30  
                                                                         
Ron B wrote :

FWIW, to label the US as imperialistic is a misnomer at best.  While we must police the world, we sure as hell don't want to rule it.

We can’t, yet. All we want is secure our future, to the detriment of human lives (if need be). And at the same time, maybe take care of the biggest treat that Israel has. Yeah, how about the Israel / Palestine war? Now that’s a fair war. Belly bombs against full (US armed) army.

 

For those looking for the so-called smoking gun--a gun doesn't smoke til after it's fired.  should we just wait for that....? 

Don’t you see what is wrong with this statement? Let’s take him out, because I know one day he will do something. If you don’t see a problem with this 1) lets clear up all Jails (They already committed a crime). 2) Where do we stop this? People with nuclear knowledge? 3) Let’s change the U.S. constitution. I know that we Americans are to busy making a living, but we need to see the world. Besides business, we are kind of ignorant (non educated), or just care about more important things in life then (outside the US) humane lives. Ask yourself, why do so many hate us so much?  They do like our money though.



 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 18:04  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

 I am sorry to inform you that if the US never existed, the likes of Saddam and Bin Laden still would.

Well sure.  The USA is part of an imperialistic culture that has existed for 10,000 years, the one that believes "there is only one right [way/] to live".  (You can identify peoples that are not of this culture, by the fact that they don't lock up the food.)

But its still true that the original Taliban were recruited and nurtured by the CIA in order to fight against a democratically elected government.  And that the chemicals that Saddam has used were made just outside of DC, and sold to Iraq to help them fight Iran while at the same time the US government was selling arms to the Iran contras. 


 


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 17:20  
                                                                         
Brownfield Project wrote :

(note: i am not saying that I am against these countries actions in opposition to the US--in fact they actually give me a bit of hope that war may be avoided)

But just to point out how much more there is to this whole situation than meets the eye... France, Russia, China, Belgium and Germany ALL have deals with Saddam for Iraqi oil. They just happen to be the opposing countries in the UN and NATO.

Coincidence? I think not.

 


 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 06:11  
                                                                         
airdrawn wrote :

war with iraq, coincidence?

its all about oil, the nuclear weapons are just a justification for war.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 15:41  
                                 
greyleonard wrote :

-proceeding with a very limited tactical strike->  :

We can`t let any surprises happen to surpress us or the development of our world.

Iraqi citizens are part of our developing world.

Don't let the media scare you so much, dude. :)


 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 06:26  
             
greyleonard wrote :

 

alt.peace


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  maandag, 27 januari 2003 22:43  
                       
Mac wrote :

 

 

 

alt.nuke.the.usa


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 14:01  
                                 
jzero wrote :

alt.kiss.my.ass.euro.mofo     

:-)

 

 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 06:24  
                       
Atomi wrote :

alt.peace

Alt-S

...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 00:16  
                                 
anonomyous wrote :

Alt-S

 

*drools*


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 00:46  
                       
Peter Mahoney wrote :

alt.impeach.Bush.Gov

=

alt.peace


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 27 januari 2003 22:51  
                                 
greyleonard wrote :

click for Chris Matthews' opinion


bushhh.swf [57kb](14075352x14075340)


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 00:30  
                       
Vlad wrote :

alt.peace

I insist.

To make the message clearer - whatever you want to post on the subject - please proceed to newsgroups. Seriously.


 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 27 januari 2003 22:46  
                                 
ItchEtrigR wrote :

To make the message clearer - whatever you want to post on the subject - please proceed to newsgroups. Seriously.

Fair enough.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 06:22  
                                 
pras wrote :

the only topic worse than religion...is politics...
<edit>...or worse yet, a michael garcia topic....
 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 27 januari 2003 23:12  
                                           
toffe wrote :

<edit>...or worse yet, a michael garcia topic....

He have asked a good question. At first I though oh hes gonna get it. It was about locking "channels" should have been guis or panels or something. It wasnt really clear what he wanted but then it was pretty smart. 

Religion and politics is fun but not on this board. USA is both arrogant and pretty stupid. I would like to send some inspectors to usa. Usa is a high risk nation when it comes to attacking countries and shouldnt have any weapons at all.

When I get president of finland (I live in sweden) I will bomb some terrorists out of usa.

Is it ok if I say Gulf now. Gulf Gulf Gulf.

This is what happens when I talk politics and I don't really have to stand up for what I say. Half of it is just arrogant. Some is true. And some is jsut me wanting to sleep. have sex. take drugs.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 01:40  
                                                     
Atomi wrote :

When I get president of finland

 You could consider this part again. I'm not voting for you :-)

T


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 09:18  
                                                     
jonboy wrote :

Religion and politicsis fun but not on this board.

Right! Fruity topics only please.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 08:57  
                                                               
Tim wrote :

Right on Jonboy.  I dont come he to hear this shia.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 10:18  
                                                     
Andy Lindsay wrote :

USA is both arrogant andpretty stupid.I would like to send someinspectors to usa...

Don't generalize.  I can assure you that there are millions of Americans who don't support monkey-boy (bush) or the scheduled war with Iraq.  Simply because the falsey-appointed administration decides they want to go to war, does not mean that the country they preside over agrees with their pretenses for doing so.

The US administration is both arrogant andpretty stupid.I would like to send someinspectors to usa...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 05:53  
                                                               
Digital Deliverance wrote :

Don`t generalize.I can assure you that there are millions of Americans who don`t support monkey-boy (bush) or the scheduled war with Iraq. Simply because the falsey-appointed administration decides they want to go to war, does not mean that the country they preside over agrees with their pretenses for doing so.

Yes, yes, monkey boy. Do some research on the politics in the league of nations and the US before WW2. See what that was like and then compare to current. Looks farmilliar, doesen't it?

Now, grey, you had a link a while back to some sort of private board for this kind of stuff. I don't have it anymore. Could you post it, please, or should I search on google for one? I'd kinda like to continue, but not here. It'd be nice to vent a bit and, I'm sure, you wouldn't mind doing the same.(?)
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 04:45  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Now, grey, you had a link a while back to some sort of private board for this kind of stuff.

It's in my profile...


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 13:36  
                                                               
toffe wrote :

Sorry if you took it as a real comment. Read the last things I wrote. Sorry I wasnt clear enough.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 14:19  
                                                     
pras wrote :

to sleep. have sex. take drugs.
these should be the only non-fruity topics allowed! where's the forum cops!? 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 01:48  
                                                               
Digital Deliverance wrote :

Really, sombody close this thread before I (or somebody else) throw(s) in a few more interjections. These things go into the 100s with posts. I've spent waaaaaaaaaay to long in debates like this. Verbaly, it would be fine, but not here.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 05:41  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Is it interesting that everything was very very peaceful until someone butted in and said "shut-up"?  If you don't approve of the thread why feed it?
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 05:56  
                                                                         
<~L I M E~> wrote :

 

OIL !


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 08:36  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Water !

Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the
parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change...



 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  vrijdag, 31 januari 2003 11:36  
                                                                         
Tokartta wrote :

PIE !

:P


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 28 januari 2003 08:46  
                                                                         
adam petrook wrote :

MUFF


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 05:04  
                                                                         
toffe wrote :

PIE !

Are you a fan of weeble and bob?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 31 januari 2003 13:02  
                                                                         
Tokartta wrote :

Are you a fan of weeble and bob?

I know weebl (as in, the creator) via IRC.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 17:48  
                                                                         
toffe wrote :

I know weebl (as in, the creator) via IRC.

Donkey love you long time.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 21:24  
                                                                         
me wrote :

Where were some of you during 9/11?

who started this?

 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 17:40  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Where were some of you during 9/11?

who started this?

It sure as fuck wasn't Saddam Hussein!


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 17:42  
                                                                         
NOMAIL wrote :

i was about 10 blocks north of the buildings. sealing my windows with tape, and wishing the phones would work.

luckily i was late to work that day, or i'd have been 2 blocks away.

this whole iraq things inst about revenge. its about order vs disorder. the un, nato, the us, the eu.. those are all great conduits of order. iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, somalia.. those are great centers of disorder. the disorder gets overtaken by warlords or tyrants, and they get to bark at and bite whoever they want, like gangsters with no police around. if no one polices them, they can even blow up buildings. it could be the wtc, the reichstag, or anyones parliament. everyone in the civilized world needs to pay attention to these situations. war may not be a good option, but its AN option, something needs to be done, and all the saber rattling by the usa will definately make *something* happen. 

disorder hates order, but will always lose in the big scheme of things.
 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 18:30  
                                                                         
mk wrote :

I dont like the american order also.I dont wanna see any american order somewhere else on the world.All these so called disordered countrys may have an order you cannot understand. Only because it dosent fit your view of a good world we should bomb em away? They have to make the same mistakes like the "ordered" countrys to grow.Maybe we could help em to grow up. But if they dont wanna get helped we should leave them alone.On the other hand, america is young also, right? So maybe they are making mistakes all the time also.War is never an option. Its only the answer of an imbecile. Unable to find a common solution.Which will be the next disordered country? Germany, France, Netherlands, China, Japan, Korea... but all these countrys dont have Oil... i think they are save... but Russia could be next... they have Oil.War is no solution.mk
 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 10:59  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

All these so called disordered countrys may have an order you cannot understand.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 12:25  
                                                                         
Brownfield Project wrote :

Disorder, otherwise known as chaos, ALWAYS WINS. There will never be a time in your life where order beats disorder. The more you introduce order into the complex dynamic system, the more disorder you will get in return.

Simple laws of physics.




 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 19:29  
                                                                         
pliant wrote :

see that computer you're typing on? order. the language you're speaking? order. the way you have some structure over your head and some sense of safety? order. someone else making electricity that you take for granted all day long? order.

order is the freaking human experience.
this isnt physics. this is people's lives.
it's the human condition. the constant battle to force the chaos into order. granted we'll never WIN.. but its the constant struggle that gives us purpose.


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 21:30  
                                                                         
Brownfield Project wrote :

Those are all examples of attempts at order. Your computer crashes... chaos... your fruityloops is glitchy... chaos...

wow... do you really believe that a persons head is order? lol the human experience is almost 100% chaos. Your very existence relies on random events arounding you causing you to react not the reverse.

You can believe what you want, but you are dead wrong. 

 

 

 

 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 11 februari 2003 21:57  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

The perception of order or chaos depends on the perspective of the observer.  What appears to be chaos to one system, in one frame of reference, is most assuredly the manifestation of order from another. Order exists on many levels, in many different but inter-connected systems.

  • Pouring a bucket of marbles onto the floor looks like chaos.  In fact, with enough accurate information we could predict the movement of each and every marble because their paths are orderly.   Pour a bucket of marbles onto the floor during a funeral and suddenly chaos is the dominant characteristic once again.
  • When we see a newborn animal in the wild being eaten by the mother, it looks like senseless behaviour to us at first.  We may then guess that it simply shows a characteristic of wild animals, in their wild world, and that it just goes to show how much better humans are.  Our guess would still be wrong.  Study would show that this behaviour has been essential to the success of many species and that it follows an order of self-limiting competition.

Anyway, one could imagine that a computer crash is the regression from a complicated order to a different, more simple one.   

Bohm's explicate order, however, is secondary--derivative. It flows out of the law of the Implicate Order, a law that stresses the relationships between the enfolded structures that interweave each other throughout cosmic space rather than between the "abstracted and separate forms that manifest to the senses." [ www.bizcharts.com/stoa_del_sol/plenum/plenum_3.html ]




 



order.jpg [28kb](14075352x14075340)


 
 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 13:33  
                                                                         
Brownfield Project wrote :

With the moral of the story, for the laymen, being: there is chaos and order in all things. Increase or decrease either, and the other will follow suit. Consider them as being symbiotic, without all the nitrogen fixation and other interesting things that occur. :)

 

I'm in school for ecology leonard :). The prime example of "order in chaos". My current thesis "The effects of imperialism on North American ecology" spends about 3 pages on the subject of order and chaos once the "colombian connection" occurs. 

Sounds like a good drug dealer.  wait man, let me call my colombian connection.

  


 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 14:30  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

With the moral of the story, for the laymen, being: there is chaos and order in all things.

Yes.  I was just indicating that it would be incorrect to assert  "chaos always beats order". 


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 15:30  
                                                                         
Brownfield Project wrote :

well, in the sense that he had put it, it does. Because no matter how much order (for this example) Bush tries to put in the system, equal parts disorder will be created.  In other words, accomplishing nothing.

 

 

 


 
Reply to this message  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 16:34  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

well, in the sense that he had put it, it does. Because no matter how much order (for this example) Bush tries to put in the system, equal parts disorder will be created. In other words, accomplishing nothing.

I generally agree, yeah.  But, I say that what you describe as disorder is a temporal conjunction of orders that are not in harmony.  And that you could also say that Bush is introducing disorder, under the guise of order, into the present system.

  We could argue about semantics, and defining order for a great long while, but we won't. :) 

I merely disagreed with the following quote of yours:

"There will never be a time in your life where order beats disorder"

But it seems we are really on the same side of the big picture, so...
Cheers :)

btw, being an ecology major with a unique take on things, you should check out the movie "Mindwalk" (1990, based on "The Turning Point by Fitjof Capra, author of "The Tao of Physics")


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 16:55  
                                                                         
SpeccyTeccy wrote :

www.photopolis.co.uk/signs3.htm

The third photo is just down the road from me.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 12:33  
                                                                         
Calius wrote :

This is all well and good but can the world leaders knock up a decent tune in 1 day with the aid of fruityloops?  Hmmmm .. I think not.

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:15  
                                                                         
emp-unit wrote :

hey, there's an idea. world leaders chosen based upon their ability to create( not destroy).
 
Reply to this message Author profile  woensdag, 12 februari 2003 20:47  
                                                                         
emp-unit wrote :

something i picked up in a coffee shop while doing research on this subject, and since it offers a constructive solution( imo) i thought i'd share it. please excuse the vertical nature of the image. i wanted to get it all up within one post( and save myself from the lengthy task of typing, at least it would have been for me to post it verbatim).

[edit]

slightly more sane image


suggestion2.jpg [85kb](14075352x14075340)


 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 13 februari 2003 03:35  
                                                                         
Craig Langston wrote :

Somehow, the Bush administration’s cowboys have done the unthinkable. They have alienated friends, ruined international relationships, squandered the good will and sympathy that the Sept. 11 atrocities inspired, and turned America into a global villain. All of this, while Saddam Hussein smiles and watches the world turn in his favor, inheriting the gusts of international opinion that Mr. Bush has mind-bogglingly forfeited. Rarely in modern times has such a blundering swap taken place. A poll in an Irish newspaper recently found that the majority of respondents in that America-friendly country believed that George Bush was a bigger threat to peace than Saddam. It is not just those perfumed pansies in Paris who are alarmed by our behavior. Somehow Mr. Bush has contrived to have people the world over see this nation—the nation that created the Marshall Plan and ended the Cold War—as an international menace on matters of security, on the environment, on justice and on fair trade.

With its Reagan-era bluster and frat-house machismo, the Bush administration has played into the hands of terrorists, breaking apart NATO and fracturing half-century-old relations with Europe that have persevered through all the roilings of post–World War II history. And the administration did it at just the very moment when the West has been targeted—not by that wretched despot Saddam, but by the murderous followers of Osama bin Laden. Thanks to the President and his hubristic crew of ideologues, America and Europe are not united, as they should be, in the face of global Islamic militancy. Instead, many people talk about the end of America’s strategic alliance with Western Europe. Instead of France and Germany, some say, we will simply align ourselves with the post-Communist states of Eastern Europe—like, say, Bulgaria.

Osama bin Laden did not create this sad state of affairs. George W. Bush did.

This column ran on page 1 in the 3/17/2003 edition of The New York Observer

www.observer.com/pages/frontpage1.asp

 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 12:07  
                                                                         
TAKI 183 wrote :

This is all well and good, but as I have said on another post about this issue ....  Bush/Blair/Bin Ladan/Saddam & Family ... they dont use fruityloops ... speaks for itself.

And to be totaly honest ... Bush probably cant operate a speak and spell.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 14:07  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

This is all well and good, but as I have said on another post about this issue .... Bush/Blair/Bin Ladan/Saddam & Family ... they dont use fruityloops ... speaks for itself.


Everyone that posted on this thread does.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 18 maart 2003 17:17  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

Well that was an interesting hour long read. A hell of a lot of shite and a few choice words from the intellectual fruityloops faction. Bravo!

My tuppenceworth is this, ill keep it short. I agree that its inconsistent, that America and the west in general are the true world oppressors, that the war will kill people, that war is horrible, that bush is a freak.

But for me the end still outweighs the means. Its a gamble though. It could, and some might say will go horribly wrong. But if I was an Iraqui fella I know I would rather another, demcratically elected government was in power. Maybe the few thousand deaths that will result from this war will result in a better life for millions in Iraq for generations to come. If not, someone somewhere is up for a major bollocking.

Aaron


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 01:29  
                                                                         
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

But for me the end still outweighs the means. Its a gamble though. It could, and some might say will go horribly wrong. But if I was an Iraqui fella I know I would rather another, demcratically elected government was in power. Maybe the few thousand deaths that will result from this war will result in a better life for millions in Iraq for generations to come. If not, someone somewhere is up for a major bollocking.

The problem I see with your view is this: In a follow up post you basically say that if more good than harm is done, then the motives of the "perpetrators" (to use greyleonard's term) are irrelevant. To me they have a direct bearing in assessing the likelihood that the "gamble" will pay off.  Many believe that the  long-term improvements in the lives of Iraqi people (and everyone in the region, probably) will largely be based on the policy decisions of the same US-led coalition that is prosecuting this war. If they are based on the same exclusively self-interested, imperialistic goals (and why would I think they wouldn't be), what will happen to the people of Iraq once those goals have been met, i. e. once the US/UK/West-In-General has what they want, will they really give two shits about what happens to the people of Iraq? Since history provides many ready examples of the US government propping up all manner of brutal repressive regimes (including the current Iraqi one) when it serves their interest to do so, I'm not optimistic. For this reason alone I can't support this war, and all of this is assuming that the original concept of "greatest good" can even be legitimately quantified.

<edit/ To amplify that last statement, I would say that some events are so horrific, so vast in their implications of trauma, that they fall outside the boundaries of rational discourse to meaningfully elucidate, things like the Holocaust, genocides of Stalin and Pol Pot, the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Their only articulation lies in a wordless, literally unspeakable, cry of grief and anguish. To compare such an event to  any measurable "good" is impossible. Do ten thousand innocent lives qualify as such an event? Twenty thousand? One thousand? I don't know, and perhaps that's my (admittidly fuzzy) point. I can only ask myself how I would feel if my parents, my brothers, my wife, my children were among those innocent dead. It renders all my theoretical musings kind of silly, you know?/ edit>

PS: if anyone reading this cares, I used to be identified here as Robert, but since the full reg names have disappeared and there are some other Roberts here, I've decided to adopt an actual nickname. How do you like it?





 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 00:54  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

Hey dude

cheers for the reply. I agree with your points to a certain extent, although I do believe that the people of Iraq are fully capable of govorning themselves, free of western influence, or as free as any state can be. Do you not thing that if in a couple of years free and democratic elections are held in Iraq the people can be left to their own devices?

I can see where you're coming from, and past experience would support your view, but Iraq isnt like any other country that has been *liberated* from dictatorship. It should be relatively rich, it has a fine history of culture and massive national resources and should be a leader of middle eastern politics and economics, not some dictatorial backwater where fear and oppression are the norm. The west doesnt seek to literally rule these places, just secure its own interests. Do you think that the country will degenerate into a starving nation of illiteraterates? from how you have spoken I doubt you do, but you get my point. The Iraqui people are perfectly capable of becoming a leading middle eastern nation if given the chance to decide their own future!

Dont get me wrong, im not saying everything will be rosy, but it has to better than it is now. Doesnt it?

Aaron


 
Reply to this message  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 01:20  
                                                                         
mercury wrote :

what does a democracy mean when even a nation like the US can fix its elections? democracy is just a word to deceive people into thinking they have a free choice. if the majority voted against war in the US (or for a president), would it change the final decision by the judicial/executive/legislative branch?

even if iraq is "democratic," all of its true power will be in the hands of its oil dictators, which will hopefully (for w) be US-bred and backed like the princes of Saudi. then they will truly have the ability to "lead" (screw) the rest of the middle east and their own people and even use weapons of mass destruction if they wish (as long as the oil keeps flowing). 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 04:13  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

What democracy means is no state torture and rape, the lessening of oppression and the overall better standard of living for the average Iraqui. PLease dont bore me with anti democracy bullshit unless you have an alternative to propose, i'm sure we would all love to hear it!

BTW, on the message board thing, i dont see the problem, just dont read it if you dont like it. This is a community of more than just fruity users - I for one have greatly enjoyed reading this and feel like Ive got to know a couple of people a litle more than I used to.

Aaron


 
Reply to this message  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 12:48  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

Mercury, you have not filled in your profile, its quite easy to do. So far it only shows Siddharth_Prakash but nothing about your computer, music or other interests.

 

I enjoy making music and its jolly good that looptalk is here because on a lot of technical issues regarding using FruityLoops and mixing ect have been answered.

 

In fact in the run up months to the release of FL Studio, where I took more interest in the forums, I learnt more about FL than in the years that I had used the program.

 

This thread on the other hand does not seem to fit in with making music or in fact anything about FL Studio.


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 04:33  
                                                                         
mercury wrote :

i'm not quite sure what the point of your post was. i've been hanging around here for years since 1.8.6...used to post more, but mainly read now.  the main reason i hang around this forum is to bother gol about new ideas and features and occassionally to get a glimpse of what other producers/programmers are doing. but since i live in new york city (midtown east for any manhattanites), it is difficult to hold back on the war issue.

i don't plan to update my profile, because i've never read anyone else's and for the same reason i don't post my music here either. but if you are really curious or worried about me being some radical, i'm not...i'm a young doctor in new york city who works hard/parties hard...don't worry about my name, my parents are indian and hindu, so i'm safe (this is just a disclaimer for anybody in a small town that would automatically assume my name and ideas are "evil"). used to play the guitar, but wasn't very good at them (and they take up too much space in city apts), so i switched to synths, sequencers, samplers about 10 yrs ago in high school and into techno/breaks. would much rather prefer not having my name/identity in public because i see 1000s of patients and don't want my fun life to interfere with my professional life. anyways, my primary goal in life is to have fun responsibly and to help others do the same in the best possible way. sort of reminds me of the personal ads...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 05:45  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

The point of my post is I am fed up with what this topic is doing to people here. This is a looptalk forum and should be about FruityLoops and music in general. Not for a place to condemn and fuel further hatred in any form.

 

My main point is I don’t see why we/us should come here and read & thus in most cases need to respond to others beliefs on war and humanitarian issues where there is so many other places (on the net for one) that this can take place.

 

My post was an example of what I would prefer to talk about, and 'Not'

 

If I was worried about you being radical I would have certainly made it clear, with a very abrupt and to the point response not one of curiosity, triggered by your thought out post further up the thread.

 

 
***************************************************

 

I don’t like to bother Gol too much; I never really know how to write something about his software that might not be taken the way it was intended (if that makes sense)

 

I used to play the guitar too but piano I found an easier for me instument to adapt to. However I also used to play clarinet and sax ;O) So even though I techno electronic type stuff I also enjoy the jazzy feel every now and then :O)

 

 

 

Well fair point about the profile I can see the logic in that ;o)


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 06:33  
                                                                         
mercury wrote :

[The point of my post is I am fed up with what this topic is doing to people here. This is a looptalk forum and should be about FruityLoops and music in general. Not for a place to condemn and fuel further hatred in any form.]

relax...there should not be any hatred generated by threads. if someone says something intelligent, think about it and give them props. if someone says something stupid, ignore it. you can't get angry if you treat it like this.

[My main point is I don’t see why we/us should come here and read & thus in most cases need to respond to others beliefs on war and humanitarian issues where there is so many other places (on the net for one) that this can take place.]


it is up to the administrators of this forum to determine whether it is appropriate. many posts do not involve fruityloops or music or are often technical and should be on the tech page (but who really cares)?

you are one of the people who reads this thread and is consistently responding (understandably because it is an important topic). don't discount this forum because ultimately it is full of artists, people who feel the need to express themselves. besides it is called looptalk and this thread contains the most looped talking of any thread in the forum.

bother gol, he loves it...


 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 06:51  
                                                                         
Spe3d wrote :

relax...there should not be any hatred generated by threads. if someone says something intelligent, think about it and give them props. if someone says something stupid, ignore it. you can`t get angry if you treat it like this.

I do tend to ignore the ‘stupid’ posts but I think you have hit the nail on the head here with regard to how it makes me feel (annoyance) as to why I don’t like it. And so respond the way I do and don’t like that so…

it is up to the administrators of this forum to determine whether it is appropriate. many posts do not involve fruityloops or music or are often technical and should be on the tech page (but who really cares)?

I guess I care on that issue, I think there is a responsibility a moderator needs to perform. This forum is full of many different people, from all over the world from many different backgrounds. The age groups are immensely spread out and this board really does need to take onto account some of these facts. There is a point when the thread needs to close or be deleted.


you are one of the people who reads this thread and is consistently responding (understandably because it is an important topic). don`t discount this forum because ultimately it is full of artists, people who feel the need to express themselves. besides it is called looptalk and this thread contains the most looped talking of any thread in the forum.



I agree there :O)

bother gol, he loves it...

I don’t think he does you know ;o)



 
Reply to this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 07:12  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Hi Aaron, I’m not fighting with you; I’m thinking with you.

But for me the end still outweighs the means. Its a gamble though. It could, and some might say will go horribly wrong. But if I was an Iraqui fella I know I would rather another, demcratically elected government was in power. Maybe the few thousand deaths that will result from this war will result in a better life for millions in Iraq for generations to come. If not, someone somewhere is up for a major bollocking.

“The ends justifies the means” is a tough one to argue with, true.  Like the situation “if you boil this baby, you will save the lives of 10 others”.  The choice is emotionally difficult to accept, but is logically an obvious one.   But what if tickling the baby would save the lives of all eleven and that fact was concealed?  For “the ends justifies the means” to be a valid ethical meter stick in a situation, depends on some qualifiers.  1) The perpetrator of the means must have fully good ends in mind.  2) The perpetrator must have made all efforts at reducing the “evil” of the means.

I’m afraid those qualifiers haven’t been met here.  And if “The Greatest Good” is at the core of the attack on Iraq, why doesn’t it have the backing of the greatest number of humans on this planet?

But if I was an Iraqui fella I know I would rather another, demcratically elected government was in power.

Shit, me too, me too.  But looking at the status of life in other countries that were supposedly bombed unto liberation by the US, I wouldn’t hold my Iraqi breath.  Being a cynically optimistic American, I’ll just hope beyond hope for the best for all non-combatants and combatants involved. 

Peace


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 04:39  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

Hey Grey, cheers for the reply

Nice analogy. Im not sure of it's validity of it in this case though - would tickling, or negotiating, have the same effect as a credible use of force? I personally doubt it, although I agree it could have been given more time. It can't really be doubted that Iraq have never complied with any of the UN resolutions unless they have been backed up by force, but maybe *maybe* this time they would have, I dont know - were all going out on a limb in this respect. My gut feeling is that nothing would have changed internally in Iraq, even if they did get rid of the WOMD, and this is my main argument.

To me the west (and I say that meaning basically the US and UK) made a fatal mistake in selling this war by focusing on the WOMD. Any fool can see its not really about that. Its really about internal US politics and re-electability IMHO, creating an "other" that the american people can unite against and get all nationalistic about. Chomsky has spoken a lot about this, and I for one give what he says a lot of respect. They obviously made a choice when this began of how to go forward - publiscise the issues of human rights and risk the counter argument of consistency, or go for the much thinner argument of WOMD but have a more clear cut case. I think they made a big mistake.

I disagree with your point about the perp needing to have *good* means though, I personally dont see why that matters if the end result is still a better life for many. Im a utilitarian at heart, after many years of toying around with Kant I came to the decision that if its better for the many the few must suffer. So I dont really understand why you have made this point - If say I want to build a hospital to save lives that may in the short term make some people ill but in the long term will make a lot more people better (yeah, I know, childish, but it's late), and the only reason i am doing it is to win the hearts of the local voters, it is still worth it, irrespective of my reasons. The hospital is still good - the motives are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, at least to this argument. The voters must make the decision at election time as to whether they respect the reasons for an officials actions, as well as the actual outcome of those actions.

The second point I find a lot more interesting but again i'm not sure I agree. Do you think the forces will indescriminately bomb civilians? I dont. I agree that civilians will die, but I think that on the whole a big effort will be made to avoid it. In the end though, if you want to cut off the power to a city and you destroy a power plant there will be workers within it and they will be civilians, i'm not sure if once you have chosen the course of war it's escapable.

As for why most people dont agree with it, well I never concern myself with that. I have no faith in the general opinion of joe public, and BTW im not an arrogant man, just all too aware that the uninformed nature of the public is the greatest flaw in democracy.

Your last point I fully agree with, and is the thing that most sways me toward your point of view. Past history would prove you are right in many respects - although Iraq is no Afghanistan, the people should be well off and educated, there is an excellent infrastructure, centuries of art, science and culture. In 20 years time if the people are left to their own devices I think they would grow to a relativelty rich and educated society, unlile the poor and socially opressed one they now inhabit. Dont forget, 20 years ago Iraq had the same economic power and wealth of Portugal and Malaysia, only the sanctions and Saddams own fiscal policy (itself devised to keep the population down) can be blamed for that.

As an aside, I actually studies peace studies at uni, so im no warmonger or right winger :P

Will look forward to you reply!

cheers mate

Aaron


 
Reply to this message  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 22:54  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Will look forward to you reply!

Well, what can I say... There is gravity and careful thought in what you wrote, and I'm with ya.

[edit] re would "tickling" have the same effect as force...

(Yeah, its a loose analogy).  Well, no it wouldn't have the same effect. ( ;) )  But its plain that the bush admin wanted this invasion since 1998 or before.  And not for altruistic reasons.   So it returns to the goodness of the ends issue. ( PNAC: www.newamericancentury.org/  ) [/edit]  

just this small point:

I disagree with your point about the perp needing to have *good* means though,

What I said was something like "the perpetrator of the means needed to have a fully good ends in mind".  But that's a relatively insignificant detail all things considered.

Cheers right back at ya. :) 

 



 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  donderdag, 20 maart 2003 23:44  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

Hey grey

As an aside, I read somewhere that you had a board that was perhaps more suitable for such discussions, care to post the link?

Aaron


 
Reply to this message  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 00:23  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

As an aside, I read somewhere that you had a board that was perhaps more suitable for such discussions, care to post the link?

Sure,:)
www.cosmicseed.net then hit the message board link.  There's a section called Looptalk Migration that I had originally intended to be used for the talks about religion that got out of hand here.  The place for talk about the war is under Government by the People

As cosmicseed doesn't exactly have a stellar audience yet, you may also like to check out the progressive forums at www.democraticunderground.com  It's a cool place.


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  vrijdag, 21 maart 2003 03:08  
                                                                         
Steven Waller wrote :

All this war talk, it's just talk...........................

My prayers are for the 12 lost today....and also for the other people we don't here about (media at its best) and all their families. Why inocent people should die is beyond me.  Too many deaths for too little reasons! I just hope that it's all over soon and that I will see my brother again, preferably not in a body bag.

respect to all, even if you don't know the truth like I do not.

 

 


 
Reply to this message Author profile  zaterdag, 22 maart 2003 01:06  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

 I just hope that it`s all over soon and that I will see my brother again, preferably not in a body bag.

Your brother has been called up?  Has he left the states yet?


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 12:41  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

My god, wont somebody think of the children?
 
Reply to this message  zaterdag, 22 maart 2003 02:33  
                                                                         
screwface wrote :

For those of you who talk about oil, shut the fuck up, this is not about oil, you know I wish he would have dropped a chem bomb right on your house, all this bullshit talk would be over. He presented a REAL threat, It is truly unfortuanate that inocent people are getting tangled up in this, but american are so friggin stupid sometimes (I am american), slightly of topic, a nutcase and his minons bombs the worl trade center and a big group of people are wondering if we are treating the detainees fairly, what the hell are these people thinking, we have gotten way too powder puff, of coarse we are gunna get attacked. There are other countries out there that dont have all these pansys living here, cause our enemy knows that if we do happen to capture them our own people will bitch and cry and make sure they are being treated well in a country club prison. Ok now everybody climb out of your soft little shell and look around. We have to protect our own, our own being anyone living in the boarders of the united states that actually believes in the fundamentals of what makes this country really great, and im not talking about the friggin loosers that have twisted our laws so bad that all you have to do is have the right amout of cash to get away with anything. Im talking about the folks that work there ass off and believe in true freedom. Our goventment is tasked with the job of protecting YOU, be glad they are. It funny that the US is always the friggin bank when ever anybody needs somthing in the world but when it really comes time for the US to do a bit of police work they are dubbed the ugly americans, well you can fuck off with your theries of OIL, and bad buisness deals going sour, Its your asses they are protecting. Some of you peope really make me sick. It really is unfortunate that inocent people have to pay for this, buit that the way of the world, servival of the fitest not survival of this biggest winers, grow up.

Bring on the flames

Screwface


 
Reply to this message  zondag, 23 maart 2003 11:21  
                                                                         
uckit wrote :

I'm not sure the US should be advertized as "the cops". The police  provide a service to the comunity and are payed by the comunity. No country serves any other countries' interests. That isn't how the whole cuntry thing works. So obviously no single country can act impartially and without prejudice. No single person can! When the US/uk consortium succeeds in in their agressive managment takeover and cough up (actually invest) a few billion here and there they will buy off the French and Russians (who stand to lose out on good deals made with Saddam) with a little oil action.

 Perhaps they will buy off the Arabs with a more base-heavy wealth distribution. That might trigger revolutions in Iraq's socially suspended neihbours. New politically correct friends for the U.S perhaps? Yummy, yummy nothing like a good friend with over three quarters of the worlds oil-and no money!

 Perhaps they see that while dictatorships are cheap (you only pay one guy) but have longterm side effects (he always invades his neibours, bullies his people, bites you and creates an atmosphere rife for terrorism before rendering Custer's last stand when you finally have to X him).  If a guy has nothing he is a potential threat. Give him a little and he's an invested partner. Now that's good business! Perhaps this is a bit cynical,  but then remember the whole place was built on slavery.....who'd believe that?


 
Reply to this message Author profile  maandag, 07 april 2003 04:38  
                                                                         
greyleonard wrote :

Bring on the flames

I don't want to waste much time with you, only this question:

If you thought your country was under the risk of certain destruction,
and you didn't know what the enemy's tactics were, but you had someone in custody who MIGHT provide information to prevent the disaster happening, would it be OK to torture them?


 
Reply to this message Edit this message Author profile  zondag, 23 maart 2003 23:03  
                                                                         
Zigbert Dingleflop wrote :

Bring on the flames

OK. You don't know how to spell.
 
Reply to this message Author profile  zondag, 23 maart 2003 18:46  
                                                                         
screwface wrote :

Its not that I dont know how to spell, I just dont do spell check :)

 


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 11:51  
                                                                         
Aaron Collins wrote :

[Bring on the flames]

 

Even though almost everything you wrote was bollocks I did actually find the last comment vaguely amusing. Take you long to think it up?




 
Reply to this message  maandag, 24 maart 2003 00:29  
                                                                         
screwface wrote :

Wow attacking my intelligence, thats the way to make a point.

 

Please


 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 11:49  
                                                                         
Craig Langston wrote :

Screwface: You really need to read or stop watching Fox News.

There are 24 US companies under investigation for selling chemical wepons to IRAQ starting in 1981. One of these groups is called the Bechtel Group.

Three of the companies on this list were the biggest contributors to the BUSH Presidential run. These companie also stand to gain in a Post War Iraq. They have bids in on the billions it will take to rebuild Iraq.

 slate.msn.com/id/2080583/

This article above is about how the CIA is further distancing itself from the forged documents the Bush administration forwarded to the United Nations to support its case that Iraq had attempted to purchase uanium.

www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/10/ma_273_01.html

Above: Three decades ago, in the throes of the energy crisis, Washington's hawks conceived of a strategy for US control of the Persian Gulf's oil. Now, with the same strategists firmly in control of the White House, the Bush administration is playing out their SCRIPT for global dominance.

www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,920701,00.html

Above / British Weapons were found in the posesion of IRAQ

www.nytimes.com/2003/03/24/opinion/24MON3.html

The chairman of the Defense Policy Board, Richard Perle has been an influential architect of the Bush administration's Iraq policy and war plans. At the same time, it turns out, he has signed on to represent a major telecommunications company that has a strong financial interest in lobbying the Defense Department. This is a conflict pure and simple, and Mr. Perle should immediately drop one of his two roles.




If you don't know what you're goverment is up to SHUT UP.

Besides that it's really unfortunate people like you live on this planet.

This is about Money and Oil. The American Way Baby.

 

 

 

 

 

 



 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 13:17  
                                                                         
Craig Langston wrote :

Umm. No weapons were found.

 You might want to read this

 

FBI Probes Fake Evidence of Iraqi Nuclear Plans

By Dana Priest and Susan Schmidt
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 13, 2003; Page A17

The FBI is looking into the forgery of a key piece of evidence linking Iraq to a nuclear weapons program, including the possibility that a foreign government is using a deception campaign to foster support for military action against Iraq.

"It's something we're just beginning to look at," a senior law enforcement official said yesterday. Officials are trying to determine whether the documents were forged to try to influence U.S. policy, or whether they may have been created as part of a disinformation campaign directed by a foreign intelligence service.

"We're looking at it from a preliminary stage as to what it's all about," he said.

The FBI has not yet opened a formal investigation because it is unclear whether the bureau has jurisdiction over the matter.

The phony documents -- a series of letters between Iraqi and Niger officials showing Iraq's interest in equipment that could be used to make nuclear weapons -- came to British and U.S. intelligence officials from a third country. The identity of the third country could not be learned yesterday.

The forgery came to light last week during a highly publicized and contentious United Nations meeting. Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), told the Security Council on March 7 that U.N. and independent experts had decided that the documents were "not authentic."

ElBaradei's disclosure, and his rejection of three other key claims that U.S. intelligence officials have cited to support allegations about Iraq's nuclear ambitions, struck a powerful blow to the Bush administration's argument on the matter.

To the contrary, ElBaradei told the council, "we have to date found no evidence or plausible indications of the revival of a nuclear program in Iraq."

The CIA, which had also obtained the documents, had questions about "whether they were accurate," said one intelligence official, and it decided not to include them in its file on Iraq's program to procure weapons of mass destruction.

The FBI has jurisdiction over counterintelligence operations by foreign governments against the United States. Because the documents were delivered to the United States, the bureau would most likely try to determine whether the foreign government knew the documents were forged or whether it, too, was deceived.

Iraq pursued an aggressive nuclear weapons program during the 1970s and 1980s. It launched a crash program to build a nuclear bomb in 1990 after it invaded Kuwait. Allied bombing during the Persian Gulf War in 1991 damaged Iraq's nuclear infrastructure. The country's known stocks of nuclear fuel and equipment were removed or destroyed during the U.N. inspections after the war.

But Iraq never surrendered the blueprints for its nuclear program, and it kept teams of scientists employed after U.N. inspectors were forced to leave in 1998.

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

 
Reply to this message  dinsdag, 25 maart 2003 14:10  
                                                                         
:: L I M E : : wrote :

 

Well then.....

 

Why don't we all have a few Beers and throw a shrimp on the Barbie ;) lol

 
 
Reply to this message Author profile  donderdag, 03 april 2003 14:39